Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: You're listening to episode 112 of sustainable photography, and I'm really sorry that this episode is two days or three days late from when it was supposed to be published.
I unfortunately got food poisoning on Monday. So when I was supposed to hit publish and do all the things with the episode, I was not in the.
[00:00:25] Speaker B: Position to do that.
[00:00:26] Speaker A: And also, my podcast editor has informed me that I was connected to the wrong microphone for the whole of the episode. So the sound is definitely not the best. So please forgive me for that. I will come back better. And if anything, I hope that this just shows you that it's okay to show up just as you are and not perfect in any way.
When Andrea Shaw and I were in the same speaker panel in the bookmark wedding summit last year, we just kept nodding and agreeing when the other spoke, and I knew I had to have her join the podcast.
She is a copywriter and knows exactly what you should write on your website to make it work for you, a topic I care so much about as a website designer, you're listening to sustainable photography, a podcast all about business tips, inspiration, and confidence building. I'm Ingvild Kolnes, the host of this podcast, and after over a decade as a photographer, I now help talented photographers run sustainable businesses. And for full transparency, you should know that I'm a mentor with paid offers, and I will probably mention some of those in this episode.
[00:01:45] Speaker B: Hey, Andrea, I'm so happy to have you here on the podcast. Can you just start by letting us know who you are and your background and how you became a copywriter?
[00:01:55] Speaker C: Sure. Absolutely. So, like any good copywriter, I did not set out to become a copywriter. I'm currently a copywriter for wedding professionals and photographers. But I very much fell into the career. I got my degree in languages, and I worked for a while for a company that translates websites, which gave me an amazing background in everything related to websites, SEO and brand voice, and just making your website work, making it functional. And then I kind of fought against the current for a while and tried a bunch of other things. And one day I said, website copywriting, like it's kind of calling my name. I know all about websites and what to do. And I started working with an elopement photographer. And when I did that first sight, I was like, this is it. I'm in love. I love doing this. I love working with people who are creating art and creating experiences and doing something tangible, something that really means a lot to their clients. So that's been it for me ever since.
[00:02:53] Speaker B: Wow. Yeah. I can completely understand that moment of just knowing that it's right.
[00:03:00] Speaker C: Yes. Like with 2020 hindsight, I probably should have known a long time before that website copywriting would be a thing for me. But sometimes it takes you time for your career to find you, right? It takes time to circle around and all the experience you had before helps. But yeah, it's a joy to work with photographers and wedding pros.
[00:03:19] Speaker B: Yeah, that's perfect. Because I'm curious to know how you think that effective copywriting plays into having a sustainable business. Because that's what this podcast is all about.
[00:03:31] Speaker C: Absolutely. And I definitely think it plays a big role. I think one of the main roles that having good copy, especially on your website plays, is that your website is there for you. Even if social media isn't working, your website is there for you no matter what. Basically, it's your own little piece of the Internet that you own. And none of us can count on Instagram or TikTok or Facebook to always do things the same way. I mean, I'm in the States tomorrow, they could ban TikTok or something like that. They can change the algorithms. Your website is really something that you control. And the more you start working on it now, the more it's going to benefit you in the future. It kind of sits there and gathers credibility and will do better in Google the longer it's around and accumulating visits and that sort of thing. So I do think that's really important. And I also think that when you have copy that showcases your personality and the way that you work, it attracts clients that you love working with and that are tolerable for you to work with. And that's part of what makes your business sustainable too, is that you don't want to show up to work every day and feel like you're dressing up in a costume as someone you're not. You want to show up as yourself. And that starts with having an online presence that actually matches who you are.
[00:04:49] Speaker B: I agree with everything you said, and I think it's kind of unfortunate that a lot of photographers and creatives feel or think that their art should speak for them, that it should be enough to take good photos, it should be enough to just share whatever it is you create. But you need to have an explanation. You need it to be found through Google, as you said. And it's a huge part in what gets your personality to show.
[00:05:18] Speaker C: Yes, 100%, I often say. I think sometimes people think they can get away with very few words because there are established people in the industry who do I look at? There's a photographer who was around when I was looking for my own wedding ten plus years ago and he's still around doing business and his website still doesn't have many words on it. It's just galleries. And that works for him because he's probably been in business 15 2025 years. Everyone knows his name, he gets referrals. But that's not necessarily a sustainable strategy. When you are just starting out and making a name for yourself, you have to use the tools that are available to you.
[00:05:55] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And I also want to mention if you are doing great, what if having proper copy on your website and having a good website, it could be the thing that helps you to do even better because you can always do better, whatever that means for you. If that means increasing your prices or working with only specific kinds of people. I mean, there's so much you can do and there's always progress to be made.
[00:06:21] Speaker C: Yes. And I even think about it in terms of beyond just the clients that you book. If you want to be more visible, if you want to be on podcasts or speak at conferences, if you want to add an education piece to your business, or even if you're selling something like presets, all of that will benefit from a more polished website.
[00:06:41] Speaker B: I bet both you and me have seen our fair share of websites through what we're doing. We have, yes. I'm curious to know if there are any mistakes that you see happening again and again. Anything that is kind of common?
[00:06:57] Speaker C: Yeah, a couple of things I would start off right off the bat with. You need to make sure the top little piece of your website shows what you do, what you specialize in and where you are, especially the where you are piece. I see a lot of people not mentioning that. And one, it's good for your SEO to mention where you are. But two, if you don't mention where you are, it can be really confusing for the reader on the first visit to your website, they want to know. If you say you're a wedding photographer who works in Nashville, they need to know that.
And on the flip side of that, I've also seen destination wedding photographers make the mistake of listing a few too many destinations on their website, which can be confusing. But in general you want to pick one geographic area that you can get some benefit from. And another thing I see people do is talk a lot about themselves and not enough about their ideal client. There's a lot of I. Not enough you. I know we're going to be in agreement on this one. And what you really want from your site is you really want to have your ideal client read it and be picturing themselves working with you. Just kind of have this image of what it's like to work with you, what it's going to be like on their wedding day, or if they book you for a maternity shoot or a branding shoot and have this clear vision of what it's going to be like. And when you have too much eye language, it doesn't help them center themselves in this vision of what it's going to be like to work with you.
[00:08:23] Speaker B: I say the same thing over and over again. Stop talking about what you like and what you want. It should be about your clients. But is there still a time and a place for talking about me as the photographer?
[00:08:36] Speaker C: Yes, definitely. I usually do it in two places. A little blurb on your homepage that leads to your about page, which is where you do get to talk about yourself. It still shouldn't read like your LinkedIn page. You still want to keep the focus on them and showcase how your expertise and your experience will benefit them. But it is okay. I'm a big fan of a few fun facts about yourself or a little personal information because it makes you stick in someone's brain. If there's nothing personal about you, it's sometimes hard for someone to remember.
They open 20 tabs and then they close them later and they're thinking about it and they don't remember who you are. So if you have a few fun facts, there's a photographer. I wish I could remember who it is, but they mentioned like their worst wedding experience was the time they fell into a pond with all their gear or something like that, which, yeah, you can imagine. But it totally, like, I'm sitting here now, I probably saw it six months ago and it stuck in my brain and they told it in a very funny way. It was very well done. A little anecdote like that, a few fun facts, they go a long way towards making you memorable.
[00:09:42] Speaker B: That's brilliant advice. Yeah. I love that because it's so easy to be one of many if you don't, if you're just using the same words and you're telling kind of the same generic things, but if you can add some stories in there, then that's perfect.
[00:09:58] Speaker C: Yeah. And I do see, when I look at websites, I do see patterns, especially among different types of wedding photographers. We can kind of categorize different types of wedding photographers. You have your adventure elopement photographer. You have your more classic urban photographers who do weddings in Manhattan or whatever. And you do see some cliches come up over and over again. So sometimes it's also good to take a peek at your competitors sites or even other people who aren't necessarily in your location, but who do similar work. And make sure if you see a phrase on four of their websites, don't use it on yours. Try to find some fresh new language.
[00:10:34] Speaker B: Yeah, that's really good advice, I think, as well, just taking a look to see what others do to make sure that you don't do it instead of trying to do something similar, which I think is what a lot of people do.
[00:10:47] Speaker C: Yeah, you want to figure out how you're different, not how you're the same as everybody else, but you really want to carve out your own little piece of different from somebody else. And it could be your work, but sometimes it's also your client experience or your personality or something along those lines.
[00:11:02] Speaker B: So if someone's listening to this and they're like, yeah, I want to stand out, but I'm not sure how or what I can do or how I can make that come across. Do you have any advice for them?
[00:11:15] Speaker C: Absolutely. The first thing I recommend is go to your reviews, whatever reviews you have, whatever testimonials you have, go through your Google reviews and look for patterns on what people are highlighting about you and your work, what they say about you, because your clients words are going to reflect what future clients will say. Also, that language really will resonate with a potential future client. So that's one piece of advice. You'll find patterns, you'll find great pull quotes, which I'm sure we'll talk about later using testimonials on your website. But then also sit down with a piece of paper or your notes app or whatever works best for you and really brainstorm all the things that you do in your business that might be unique, the experience that you have, the aspects of your work and your personality. And just write down a long list. Maybe it's that you went to photography school, maybe it's that you apprenticed with someone, maybe it's something about your process that's a little different. And try, just make a long list and try to figure out what are the things that nobody else is doing. Sometimes it's not one thing nobody else is doing. It's a combination of things you do that makes you really unique.
[00:12:21] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:22] Speaker B: And sometimes it's the thing that maybe everyone else also does, but no one's really talking about it.
[00:12:28] Speaker C: Absolutely. And just like I said, writing it down. Ask people who look at your work, ask a peer that you trust and say, what is different about my work? What is different about my process? What do you notice that I might be able to hang my marketing on?
[00:12:42] Speaker B: Yeah, that sounds great. And what about storytelling? We briefly touched on it before, but once you've established who you want to work with and what is different about you, how can we add in stories to make our connection with our potential clients even deeper? I mean, you kind of touched on it when you were talking about falling into the pond, but do you have any other examples?
[00:13:06] Speaker C: Yes, I definitely do. I think when you do your about page, there's a story you can tell about how you got into the business and how that experience sets you up as a person who's uniquely qualified to work with people. And there is almost always a story there. I see a lot of websites that are. The first time I picked up a camera, I was obsessed and that sort of thing. I've seen that story 50 times on a website if I've seen it once. But there's probably a deeper story in there about why you do what you do, and you need to figure that out. And then I also love stories from shoots. Little lines, little throwaway things. I recently wrote a website for a couple that work together as wedding photographers. And I just said, tell me about your favorite weddings. Tell me about the most memorable ones.
And they gave me some great examples. One was the male partner went to shoot pictures of the groomsmen in a local park, and then snow started falling. So that was very picturesque. And then there was a class full of seniors doing Zumba dance class in the park. And so the groomsmen joined in the dance class, and they got these wonderful photos of these guys in suits, snow falling, basically busting a move to whatever was playing. And it was very charming, and it helped people picture that. They're good at spontaneous moments, they're good at going with the flow. And it was a really detailed, specific example. It was not an example that applies to every wedding. That's not going to happen at every wedding. But people don't want to think their wedding is like every wedding or their experience is like everyone else's. They want to know you'll capture what's unique about it.
[00:14:46] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a really good idea to think about things that have happened in your favorite weddings because those are the ones that you want more of going forward, probably. So it's a good idea to pull stories from them.
[00:14:59] Speaker C: Yes. And it is also a good idea to think about weddings or sessions that haven't gone well. And just as you're writing, as you're marketing, look for patterns in things you don't like doing and see if there's a way you can weave that into your copy and your marketing. I hate the word repel, but it is kind of an important word. You don't want to market to clients that aren't a joy for you to work with.
[00:15:25] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And in terms of connecting with your potential clients, finding ways where you can evoke emotions is really key. But how can you do it without it becoming, like cliched or overly sappy in a way where it's genuine?
[00:15:48] Speaker C: So I think one thing to remember for photographers is that generally speaking, particularly in the wedding market, people have already decided to work with a photographer. It's usually true. Also with someone from maternity newborn branding, most of the time people are approaching you because they know they're going to work with someone. But a lot of storytelling advice seems to come at it from the point of view that you need to convince people that they need your product, and that's not true. And it sometimes is very over the top. If you're trying to convince someone of the importance of having wedding photos, they know they want them. So come at it from the point of view of thinking that they know they want your service and then start to think about the emotions that come into play that way. And I do think that many of the situations photographers work in are very high emotion, but it is important not to be cheesy. So that's why I like to go back to specific details. The more specific you can be, I think the less cheesy it is. So when you think about little details, moments that you capture, people are much more able to respond to those and process those. When you talk about emotions on a very micro level instead of a macro.
[00:16:57] Speaker B: Level, I love that. That's very tangible and it's easy to use and get inspired by. Do you have any concrete examples that you can share on how copywriting of what you've done has helped someone turn their business around?
[00:17:15] Speaker C: Definitely. I recently worked on a website for someone who was relatively new in wedding photography and she was very quickly taking off, and so she knew she needed something more than just a simple one page website. And she has a very classic style, but she couldn't quite put into words as it is. Right. You can never quite put into words your own style. So we worked together and she's been raising her prices ever since. And I can just see her gathering, kind of gathering steam and really growing. She's actually local to me, which was one of the joys of working with her. It's fun to work with someone nearby, and she's really gathering steam now, increasing her prices. I think the next move for her will be probably to book fewer weddings, but more weddings that are aligned with the type of work she wants to do. And she's also been able to book some destination weddings, which was a big goal for her. That was a real fun thing to weave in to address, was she wanted to start traveling a little bit and how to make people know that she was available for travel and what her package pricing was. So that was something we worked on together, was making sure that woven in was the detail of, yes, I will travel. I'm pretty much sitting here with my bag packed and ready to go if you want me to go somewhere. And I know she's going. She's been to New York a couple of times recently. I'm in Florida, so to give some context, she's been to New York. I think she's going to Hawaii, which was a bucket list one for her. So that's really fun too.
[00:18:41] Speaker B: Perfect. Okay, that sounds great.
[00:18:45] Speaker A: If you want more of this podcast, please leave a review where you listen to it. It helps more people find it, and it tells me that you love it, which makes me want to create more episodes for you.
[00:18:56] Speaker B: And we touched on testimonials briefly before. So can you speak to how using testimonials is a good idea to have on your website and how you can use them in the most effective way?
[00:19:10] Speaker C: Yes, this is like one of my pet subjects. I love to talk about this. So definitely your testimonials are super important. Listen, anyone can buy a domain and set up a website tomorrow and talk about how great they are. Your testimonials are the proof that other people actually find you great and that they're satisfied with the work you do. And we all know in the photography industry there are people who don't deliver on what they promise. So it's really important to build that trust with your reader, and testimonials are helping you do that. So one thing I see people do that I don't recommend is to put their testimonials or their reviews on one page of their website and not on the rest. And I really like to see them incorporated throughout the website, on your home page, on your about page, on your contact page, throw a quote from a testimonial in there, anywhere that you can to get some juice out of them. And the other thing I see people do is they feel like they have to cut and paste the whole review, even if it's 500 words and it's just a big block of text and you can selectively edit, you don't want to change the meaning, but sometimes it's best to pull out one or two sentences that talk about an aspect of your work and highlight those rather than highlight the 500 words. If you look at the 500 words, you're going to find there's some repetition in there. Someone came on, they got their photos, they were super excited, and there's some repetition in there. They talk about how great you are four times. But then there's one little gem of insight that talks about they were having a difficult moment right before their ceremony and you helped them pull themselves together or something like that and got some great photos. That's the little gem you want to pull out and put on your website. The other thing with testimonials is make sure this goes beyond copywriting, but make sure you're asking for them. Make sure you have a process that when you deliver your product, you're asking for testimonials from people, particularly those you know will be satisfied. If you have a wedding or a session where you know that person's probably not going to be happy, then you don't have to request them. But in general, you want part of your system to be checking in with people and asking for feedback, whether that's with you, whether it's important that they leave it on a Google review, because I know those are critical or on another aggregator site. But you want to make sure you're asking for those reviews.
[00:21:29] Speaker B: Yeah, I say a lot of the same things to my clients and I think it's kind of fun that we see eye to eye on all these things. It makes me feel empowered as well.
[00:21:40] Speaker C: Like, yes, I'm vindicated, right? You hear someone else say, yeah, in general, I love pulling out. Like, there's always just gems when you go through people's testimonials, but sometimes it's hard to see them at first glance and you really just want to put the whole thing on there. But don't be afraid to pull a little piece out and just highlight something that's amazing about your client experience or your personality or something like that.
[00:22:07] Speaker B: Yeah, it seems like we have the same kind of love for websites because they're so powerful and so many are not taking advantage of them and missing out that way. So they're focusing all their attention on social media?
[00:22:22] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:22:23] Speaker B: And I'm betting most people will still keep using social media. And I think that's a good thing because social media can be amazing. But is there a way to kind of minimize the work? Can you pull from your website and add that to social media in a good way? Or do you have to think completely different when you're writing for social media than for your website?
[00:22:44] Speaker C: I do think with social media, sometimes it really depends on who you are, but sometimes it's easier to create on the fly. So sometimes people find it easier to be themselves on social media, it just feels a little bit less formal. And if that's you keep doing what you're doing, if it comes naturally to you, don't feel like you have to change anything. But if you're like me and it doesn't, it's okay to use pieces of your website. It's okay to use snippets of things you've done before.
You don't have to feel like the two channels or that they have to be different. And you can repurpose content. Please repurpose content. The Internet demands way too much content of any solopreneur, even someone with a team. And you've got to repurpose. And you have to remember that the chances that one person is consuming every single piece of content you put out, whether that's on your website or your social media channels, are slim. I mean, I'm on Instagram all the time. I follow people I really like, and I still don't see all of their work on Instagram, even though I like whatever I do see if they make regular posts, chances are I'm missing some of them. So don't feel guilty about repurposing. Please do it.
[00:23:55] Speaker B: I agree, definitely. And I think we also see eye to eye when it comes to SEO. So maybe you have some advice when it comes to writing for SEO in terms of getting the most out of SEO as well.
[00:24:08] Speaker C: Yeah, I do. And I think it's really important to know your SEO basics or to work with someone who does. There's lots of great people. If you don't want to learn about it, outsource it. But make sure that your website is SEO optimized and it's as simple as choosing one keyword per page and using it a couple of times in the right places. It doesn't have to be much more complicated than that in the beginning. There's also some technical aspects I won't go into because I'm not expert on the back end piece. But it should be really easy if you choose your keywords, right, to weave them into your copy and sound natural. And it's not 2010, you don't want to stuff your copy with your keyword and use it 27 times. Usually for most of my clients, we choose a keyword that we can use once in the header, once or twice in the body copy, and that's really it. It doesn't need to be much more than that if you're using it in the correct places.
But it is really important to start getting those leads, to start getting that traffic up. And it will only kind of snowball over time if you do it in the beginning when you're setting up. Yeah, I can't say enough. I know it's really critical for people, especially if social media is not your cup of tea, then it is really important to learn about SEO. As a copywriter, I don't do blogs, but I do think they're an incredibly valuable tool on your website. Also, again, especially if social media isn't your jam or you want to have a backup plan in place, then blogging is really important too. And you don't have to be a professional writer to write your blogs. I think done is way better than perfect when it comes to blogging. If you learn a few basics about SEO and start getting some blog entries out there, you'll be grateful that you did it a year from now.
[00:25:57] Speaker B: Yeah, think so too. I think blogging is important, but it can feel overwhelming, like there's so much you need to know and do, but definitely just get started and start doing it and maybe not overthink it. Just try to think. Okay, so what does my ideal client really need to know from me and start from there instead of just writing about any random thing?
[00:26:19] Speaker C: Yes, definitely don't write about topics that are near and dear to you, necessarily. Do a little bit of research.
I know for a lot of wedding photographers, it's as simple as writing a piece on a specific venue or writing a piece on five venues you've never heard of in the Pittsburgh area or whatever. But think about what people are searching for, where they're at the stage of wedding planning, that they're curious, but they haven't booked a photographer yet. Usually I think with weddings, the photographer and the venue are some of the first bookings. I was talking with a client who's a wedding planner and she was telling me, those are the two first ones. So if you think about that, they kind of go hand in hand if they're looking for a photographer, they might be looking for a place to get married. If you're not a wedding photographer, there's still a lot to explore in terms of like, say you're a maternity photographer. What do people need to know? What do they need to show up with?
What are some different types of shoots that you all? I live in Florida again, so I've seen all the standing on the beach, hair blowing in the wind. But what if you do other ones? Can you talk about those and showcase the work that you do?
[00:27:26] Speaker B: Absolutely.
What about trends? Are there trends in copywriting? Should you try to stick to what's happening right now, or should you just do what you do? How does that work?
[00:27:39] Speaker C: I'm definitely a fan of doing what you do because I think when you're tapped into your own voice and your own personality, it resists any trends. I don't see a ton of trends in website copywriting other than phrases that pop up over and over again. But what I do see as kind of hampering people's business is when they look at someone they want to be and they emulate what that person's voice is. Because ultimately it's not going to be authentic to you. It's not going to represent how you show up. And I'm not talking about straight copy and pasting. It's just that it is easy to get too caught up in what other people are doing and want to be them. And I always say you don't know what in someone's business model or someone's website is or isn't working. You never know what's going on behind the scenes. And so what might seem fantastic. One, it might not be the right strategy for you. Two, it might not even be the right strategy for that person. You don't know how they're booking people.
So I do encourage people to think about their website strategically and figure out what they need that will work for them and their business, because no two businesses are exactly alike.
[00:28:46] Speaker B: Yeah. So when it comes to one of the difficult parts and important parts of a website is listing your services and your packages, do you have anything you want to say about that? How you can write about those in a way that's making them interesting for your clients, that are making them think like, oh, yes, this is exactly what I need.
[00:29:08] Speaker C: So I definitely think you want to talk about the experience a little bit. What they're going to get, what they're going to feel. Say you're a family photographer and you include hair and makeup in your services or something like that. Talk about how great they're going to feel when you show up and you do a little bit of Glam squad, and then they pose with their family and how natural it's going to be. Or if you're an elopement photographer, talk about the adventurous moments they're going to have on their day and what it's going to be like. As you're describing each package. Talk about what it covers, but then don't give too much information. I think we often get in the weeds with our own business, and we think that the details that are important to us as business people are the details that clients need to read right away. One I see with photographers a lot is telling people how many photos they're going to get per hour. It's especially applicable to weddings or event photography.
Clients don't necessarily know what's a good number and they don't know that. They should know that or whether they should know that. And so once they see a number like that, then they get hung up on it and they're like, oh, well, is 200 photos enough? Should I be expecting more? Should I be expecting 250? This person says they do 250. Maybe that's better. And the reality is, without context, it's not a meaningful number. And so you need to look at what is meaningful to people. And I also feel like sometimes photographers put too many packages on their website, keep it to the main ones that can be really differentiated, and then consider that some of your sales work happens after your website. Whether it's in an investment guide or in a proposal or on a sales call, you always have the opportunity to do upsells and add ons and that sort of thing. But a lot of times I see like six packages on a website and there only are minor differences between them. And that's just going to confuse people. You really want to make sure they're differentiated, and then you can share further details later on. Kind of drip out information as they need it. And the other thing is, I'm a big advocate for sharing your prices on your website. When you're sharing packages, it does not need to be a hard and fast. This package is $350 or $3,000, but it does need to give people an idea of your price range. Are you in their budget? Will they need to expand their budget? But nobody likes a sales call surprise when they get on and they think that the person that they've been dreaming of working with is $2,000 for their wedding day, and you say, no, I'm $12,000. It's difficult for them, but it's also wasted energy for you because you want to get on calls and talk to people who are going to be able to afford to fit you in their budget, too.
[00:31:57] Speaker B: And I also think that if you don't state your prices, then you're also missing out on the ones that think that you're too expensive or too cheap or like not in the right budget. So I think telling your prices upfront is a good idea.
[00:32:14] Speaker C: Yes. And again, it just needs to be a range or some context for people. The average spend, perhaps you do a lot of sales afterwards, the session fee is this and the average spend afterward is that. And then people can make up their mind. But I don't like surprises personally, so maybe my own point of view comes from that. I never like a pricing surprise. And when you think about it with most of your other consumer experiences, the price is never a surprise. You don't buy a house and show up and the realtor says, surprise, it's this much money. Or you don't go to the, well, I guess in the United States you sometimes do go to the doctor and get surprised by the price. It shouldn't be that way. But you don't go to your massage therapist and have them tell you at the end, well, by the way, now that you're here and you made your appointment, this is the cost. So you really want to make sure that people, it makes people feel taken care of, too. I think a little bit it does.
[00:33:10] Speaker B: And if you do kind of leave it to be a surprise, your clients won't be that happy on the other end of it because I have heard of that where someone's booked a photographer for their wedding and after their wedding they realize like, oh, it doesn't actually include the things that we took for a given. And then they have to spend maybe twice as much or even more than what they imagined. And sure, that photographer makes money, but for how long? Because if all the clients are surprised afterwards and unhappy, then it's not going to last.
[00:33:44] Speaker C: You don't get the good review, you don't get the referrals, you don't get all of that extra stuff that matters when you have a good client experience. Yeah, and people talk about ghosting, too. And I do think part of ghosting is you have no prices on your website sometimes, and then you send an investment guide and people are kind of like, oh, well, I really wanted to work with him or her, but now I'm not going to book a sales call because I just can't it's not in my budget and you never know too.
I also think sometimes people say, well, if they want to afford it, they'll find a way. And the reality is that might be true, but you need to give them something to work with.
Maybe someone's wedding budget can shift around to accommodate you, but they need to know that if we book this photographer, then we're going to have to do some other things a little bit differently.
[00:34:34] Speaker B: Yeah, and I also think that working with a copywriter is a good investment for most of us. I think it really helps because then you get that outside perspective that you yourself aren't always able to have because you see things from your side of things and it's hard to know what you should consider. Let's say that that's not an option. Whoever's listening right now has to figure it out on their own. Where do they start?
[00:35:04] Speaker C: So I'm going to start off by saying it is totally valid to write your own copy in the beginning stages of your business. If anything, I sometimes would tell people not to go out and make a huge investment when you're starting, because who you want to work with and what you want to do may shift in the early going of your business. And you don't want to spend a bunch of money with a copywriter and then realize six months down the line that actually you want to target a totally different client. So most people start out writing for themselves. And that's not a bad thing. I would say that do read up on some basic SEO before you do it. Do find someone you trust to read through your copy for you and read through it yourself. Let it sit. I'm a huge advocate of letting your copy sit. So write what you want to write for your website and then put it in a proverbial drawer. So just close the Google Drive folder and don't look at it for a week. And then come back to it with fresh eyes and think about it from the perspective of your ideal client.
This is the most cliched marketing advice ever. But you will have an easier time writing your copy if you've thought about your ideal client and who they are and what they want and what questions they have. Because really, your website is to sell you. But at the end of the day, you want to answer all the questions they have in their head, even if they didn't know they had those questions. You're answering questions for them. You're doing it in a way that flows, but you're answering the questions that they have. What if I'm the number one question, what if I'm awkward on camera? How will you help me relax? How will you manage my mom, dad, my five aunts, their partners, my cousins, how are you going to manage family portraits in an hour when we're all gathering together? How are you going to do this? And when people are searching on Google, ultimately, that's kind of the questions, the sort of questions that they have in mind.
How are you going to help me? What am I going to feel like when I work with you? You want to know those questions, but you also want to know what's in your ideal client's head. Is there something specific that's bothering them? So when I worked with an elopement photographer, we did a lot of content on how to elope. What does an elopement mean? What does an elopement look like? And answering those questions, because she knows that her ideal clients sometimes have heard of elopements and they think they're really cool. They've seen her photos on Instagram and they love them. But when it comes time to actually elope, they don't know what they don't know. That's really the crux of it, kind of, you don't know what you don't know and so you want to tell them what they don't know and they need to know.
And I also would say don't feel like when you're writing for yourself that you have to have 27 pages on your website. For most people starting out, a home page, an about page, a services page and a contact page will serve you very well.
[00:37:55] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree with that. I think oftentimes I see other websites and they're not necessarily cluttered, but there's so many pages on there and it's like a labyrinth to navigate through. So less is more, for sure.
[00:38:10] Speaker C: Yeah. I will say one caveat to that is that if you do multiple types of photography, I usually recommend choosing one to focus on for your SEO keywords on your home page, your about page, but then say you are a sports team photographer who also does senior photography for high school seniors. Give yourself one page to talk about that separate type of photography. It's better for SEO and it's better just for your content in general because I know that there are a lot of photographers who do multiple types of photography and it's usually hard to manage multiple websites. Most people are not. They don't have the energy for that. It's hard enough managing one website.
The only major exception I see is, and I know there's reasons for this is separating wedding and boudoir photography. That's usually a smart choice for people. But beyond that, if you do weddings, but you also do maternity and newborn, you can create one page for that and it'll make sense to people. They're like, oh, yeah, you photographed me at my wedding, now you're going to do my family portraits? Of course, why not? But, yeah, I like to separate those out a little bit.
[00:39:17] Speaker B: Yeah, I definitely agree. And if someone wants to work with you, if they're like, yeah, I'm at that stage now where I'm ready to invest. I want to work with someone who knows what they're doing, and I want to do things right. How does it work? What can they do?
[00:39:35] Speaker C: So I definitely recommend that you have a few clients in your pocket that we can talk to, because one of my favorite parts of working with photographers is talking to their clients and finding out what the experience was like in their own words. Because one thing we do as copywriters, it's kind of a trade secret, is that a lot of the best words on your website don't come from our heads. They come from research, especially listening to your ideal client. Because oftentimes, as business owners, we use a certain language to describe what we do, and it doesn't reflect the way our people talk about what we do. They talk about it in a layman's perspective. They use different language. And your website ultimately has to reflect the way that they see your product. So you want to talk to those people. Talking to those people is a huge part of what I do. I also like to do a lot of competitor research just to see where we can kind of carve out a niche for you and find your special sauce. So research is really the name of the game. That's where we start. And I also talk to all my clients. I make them do homework. So there's a questionnaire, and I ask all kinds of quirky questions, because sometimes we're just looking for that one factor, that one story that kind of cracks the egg and tells your whole story. We're trying to figure out what it is. So all of that comes together. I think we always like to say it's 80% research and then 20% writing, which is not the perspective that people have. And that might shed some light. Also, for people trying to do their own copywriting, is that the research is what makes the copy good.
I'm working with a client right now. As I'm researching, lines will come to me, and I'm kind of jotting them down. But if you try to start with a blank page, it's really hard.
And I've written my own website copy, so I'm here to attest to that. But, yeah, the research is the magic. It's really where the magic lies.
[00:41:28] Speaker B: Okay, that's really interesting.
So where do they go to find you? If whoever's listening wants to just keep learning from you or work with you, where should they go?
[00:41:39] Speaker C: They can find me on my website, which is andreashaw.com. I do not have a creative business name as a copywriter, I should be more creative. And then also on Instagram, I talk a lot about copy on there. Good examples. So that's Andrea Shaw copy. And that's kind of my place because as someone who works with photographers, I know where you guys are. So you're on Instagram and I'm on Instagram. And you can come find me there, send me a message. And I love also just to connect with everyone and really build a community and answer questions. So I'm always there for you.
[00:42:11] Speaker B: Oh, perfect. Thank you. I'm going to be sure to share links for that so that you're easy to find.
[00:42:16] Speaker C: Well, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure talking to you today.
[00:42:20] Speaker B: Thank you. Yeah, you too. I really enjoyed it.
[00:42:22] Speaker C: Thank you.
[00:42:26] Speaker A: You just listened to an episode of sustainable photography. Please share this episode with the photographer you care about.
