Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Are you wanting to create a highly elopement photographer business doing what you love? Or maybe you have a great business already and want to up your game, then you're in the right place. Master craftsman photographer Lucy Dumas and her guests are here to support you on your journey. Now here's your hostess and tour guide, Lucy.
[00:00:21] Speaker B: Find something you're passionate about and keep tremendously interested in it. And that is from the late and great and incredible Julia child.
So before we get started and I introduce you to my guest all the way from Norway, I just want to thank you for listening to the show, letting me know how you feel about this show and invite you to go to my YouTube channel, sustainable photography. And you can watch this episode and many others. And I'd appreciate if you'd also subscribe. It really helps the show, helps me and helps you. Okay, so my guest is Ingvild Kolnes. She's an educator and mentor elopement photographer. She also has a podcast called sustainable photography. And there may be a time shortly where I'm the guest on her show. Once we can pull that together. The time zones are interesting, right? Trying to find a time between San Diego and what city are you in? Norway.
[00:01:36] Speaker C: I'm in Christensen, which is like pretty much as far south as you can.
[00:01:40] Speaker B: Ah, okay. So here's what she does. She helps talented but overworked photographers get back in touch with the artists they want to be where they work with their dream clients without having to overwork. And she helps them build confidence, set boundaries, and teaches them to charge what they're worth through her seven step program so they can make a great living from their creativity. So howdy. Hello.
Hi.
[00:02:11] Speaker C: This is so exciting.
[00:02:12] Speaker B: Yes.
This show has been listened to in 95 countries. I don't know if you've checked yours.
[00:02:19] Speaker C: I have, but it's not on Spotify and on all the others. It's different. I have to count. And the last time I counted, I was at like 60 something because you have to add it up.
[00:02:31] Speaker B: But isn't that fun to think about people all over the world? I love that this profession is really a one world profession. That's what I've learned even more.
[00:02:43] Speaker C: I know.
[00:02:44] Speaker B: So now I've interviewed people in Russia and Singapore and now Norway. So that's super cool.
[00:02:54] Speaker C: Yeah, it is.
[00:02:55] Speaker B: So I'd love to know a little about your background. I know you are or were a photographer. Were you full time? Was it weddings? Tell me about how you got into photography a little bit.
[00:03:11] Speaker C: Okay, so I got into photography when I was backpacking a long time ago. And it was a mix of wanting to photograph and just capturing and documenting and everything that happened, as well as not wanting to go back home and start like a nine to five job. So I was like, no wonder if it's possible to do photography.
And in the beginning it was just like a side thing. I didn't really know what I was doing. But then after a while it became more and more serious. And right now, I don't remember how many years ago, but let's say five, six years ago, probably six years ago, I quit my part time job and went full time as a photographer. And for me it's been weddings. Weddings pretty much the whole time.
Up until a couple of years ago when I discovered elopements. And then it was just like, no, it's elopements all the way. And now I don't do any traditional weddings anymore. It's just elopements. And not many of them because I'm such an introvert and it's just so draining to go out and travel and do all the stuff. But I do love elopement.
[00:04:28] Speaker B: Yeah. If that had been a thing, because I did weddings for twelve years before becoming the baby whisperer, and if there had been such a thing, I probably could have stayed in the business. Because it was all the stress of all the things and the people and the vendors.
[00:04:48] Speaker C: It's so much.
I don't think people realize how stressful it is. And I loved it for such a long time. I just loved it. But it was so much work. And then it got to a point where it's just like, I don't love it anymore.
It's just so stressful.
[00:05:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
I learned over Covid that I do have an anxiety disorder because when the world went quiet and I still felt the feels, I was like.
And the anxiety of booking a wedding and knowing you have to be there eight months from now with all your stuff together with an assistant, everything working, feeling healthy, or at least being able to work through sicknesses because I've done that several times. The stress of that was such a big part of it for me.
[00:05:51] Speaker C: But yeah, I can relate to that.
[00:05:54] Speaker B: And then the work. I still have wedding nightmares. Do you have those dreams where you show up naked?
[00:06:01] Speaker C: I do sometimes. The last one, I was at the wedding, but I forgot to photograph. I just sat there and I was kind of just like a guest and I knew I was going to photograph. And it wasn't until after the ceremony I was like, wait a minute, I've forgotten to take any photos. What are we going to do to kind of make them recreate it without realizing that I forgot to do my job. It was awful. It was awful.
[00:06:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:25] Speaker C: For me, the anxiety doesn't kick in until right before the wedding day. So I'm all excited when I get the booking and when we do the planning and stuff and then right before it's just like, I just panic and it's just like, I can't do this, what am I doing? It's such a big day and it's so much responsibility and it's all dependent on those few moments and it's just so much.
[00:06:51] Speaker B: So I went to a family wedding in, I guess it's the upper midwest of America and it was a family wedding. Cousins. I was not the photographer, and the photographer, it was his first time and he did go to film school, so he was also filming.
And he and the bride were perfectly happy to let me help with posing with ideas about locations.
So it was absolutely the best of both worlds. And I had my smaller Sony mirrorless, so I wasn't lugging around something and it malfunctioned at one point. So I just grabbed my phone because I wasn't responsible and I was like, oh yeah, I love the wedding part. It's all the stuff.
Yeah, there were some things I did and the responsibility. Yeah. And there was a time when I just wanted to sit inside. It was hot and I just stopped helping and that was fine too. So I realized why I loved it, why I did them for twelve years. And also having this experience and gift to be able to help a family member, elopement photographer that were venture to say a lot better than they would have been for somebody where it was his first time. And at the same time, like you, I love to teach. And so he was like a sponge and let me give him tips and he said watching me refine poses so simply. Anyway, it just felt so good that I helped him and I helped my cousin and I got to have fun photographing too. So yeah, interesting that we have those same awarenesses, but I endured for twelve years.
So I know you love to mentor people on business success. How did you learn? Where did your understanding of successful businesses come from?
[00:09:02] Speaker C: Probably from messing up so much myself, like starting from scratch, not really having anyone to learn from.
I started my business in Norway probably in I think 2011 and there wasn't any Facebook groups or online courses or anything like that. If I wanted to learn anything, I would have had to go to proper photography school, which doesn't involve anything to do with business anyway, or books from Amazon. And I went for all the books. I probably had about 20 books. And I read everything I could get my hands on. And I tried different things and it probably wasn't enough because I did so many mistakes and I just didn't really know how to do things and I just tried. And along the way I realized that everything that I had been doing was kind of just a waste of time. Because if I had had someone to learn from, I could have done so much, so much faster instead of spending years just not really getting anywhere.
So I decided that I think, I don't know, my time or my, I don't know what to call it was just better spent helping others instead of just sitting there with all that knowledge myself that I can do more with it than just keep it to myself.
[00:10:34] Speaker B: Right?
[00:10:37] Speaker C: That's how, I guess, yeah.
[00:10:39] Speaker B: So you'd absorbed so much information, more than you could use yourself.
And I'm assuming there's a part of you that's always been a natural teacher and likes to help others.
[00:10:55] Speaker C: Yeah, I love helping people. When one of my students books something or has some kind of a win, it feels like a million times better than when I experienced something good myself. It's just like it means so much.
It's, it's selfish in a way because I just really enjoy that. And I think at least here in Norway, there are so many photographers that burn out. There's so know you take too much on and it's so stressful and we don't get paid enough and all those things. And I just realized, like, if they just knew this and that and things could be so much easier. So I feel like I can do my part in making sure that maybe some people don't end up burnt out or giving up and quitting because it's such a shame when some of the elopement photographer out there are invisible or are just not booking the right clients or feeling like they can't charge anything. All those things.
[00:12:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I totally am. On that same page, I get a thrill as if it was me when my clients are successful. One of my clients, that the most important thing that we did together, besides all the education and those things is she didn't feel like she was a real photographer. And by the end of our time, she said, I know I'm a real photographer. And this week she just posted this amazing studio that she'd gone from her home to her dream of a downtown historic building studio to something that, oh my gosh. It's just huge. Incredible. Custom built for her. And it hasn't been that long, and I know she's not just taking out loans, and I know she's making a good living at this. And, oh, my gosh, I was so thrilled.
I wish there were mentors in my space, but we're here now. Okay.
[00:13:15] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:13:16] Speaker B: I always ask people's superpowers. I don't know if you specifically answered that question in my form. What do you think your superpower is and where did it come from?
[00:13:30] Speaker C: That's a good question. I was just working with a branding expert, trying to get a little bit unstuck, and she actually said to me that my superpower is that I'm able to see what others need to thrive or to just do better. And I think she's kind of right. That's probably what I do best.
She called it discernment.
[00:14:01] Speaker B: And where did that come from, your ability to discern?
[00:14:06] Speaker C: I don't really know. Maybe just listening and paying attention to others. Being kind of brought up to be very nice to people, especially those who don't really have a place, I think. Yeah.
[00:14:25] Speaker B: So there's a really good book called.
I think it's called quiet, and it's about introverts.
And I think there's a term called highly sensitive person, HSP. And I fit that, so you too. And we're born this way.
For me, it's like, physically, I feel things so strongly that I have trouble sometimes paying attention. In school, my mom had to cut the elastic a little on my undies because if it was tight, I could not listen to the teacher.
So it goes into that. But also that people who are by nature introverts, you'd think it would be a disadvantage in a business like ours, but you get to slow down and listen to people and pay attention and are able to communicate because you're not focused on getting all the attention, being like a show pony, which, nothing wrong with that. I like attention, but, yeah, so interesting if people are listening that think, I can't be successful in this business because I'm an introvert, well, read that book and you'll see some of your strengths. So I'm glad I asked you that. I don't usually actually ask the superpowers, so mine, I usually say, is sales. I was a born salesperson. I was, as a kid doing little things and selling it in the neighborhood. And the joy of creating and then getting money for it is something I like quite a bit.
[00:16:25] Speaker C: All right.
[00:16:26] Speaker B: So I know one of the things that you love to talk about, help people understand is the power of having a great website.
So what? What do you mean by that? And what is the power of a website if it's done right?
[00:16:46] Speaker C: I think this kind of ties into the whole introversion thing, because as you mentioned, attention. Not everyone loves it, and I don't particularly love attention, actually. I kind of hate it. And when you have a business, you have to be visible. It's just, it's really hard to run a business if no one knows you exist. And to me, social media is such a drain.
There's so much happening. You have to keep posting every single day, if to get the best possible result. Of course you can post rarely, but then the results are not as good. And for me, that's always been stressful. I'm able to post every day or consistently for a few weeks or even a couple of months, and then I kind of just forget and I'm just too exhausted to even think about it right now. I haven't posted anything for a few months because I'm just not at that place.
And then I discovered after working quite a lot on it, that my website could do all that work for me. So I went from being completely invisible on Google to getting on the first page for the relevant search terms.
And that changed everything, because instead of having to post and be visible and do all the networking and all the stuff, I could just depend on my website bringing me all the leads and clients that I needed. So that's how it started. And then since then, I have realized that it's not enough to be visible. To have a visible website, you need to have a website that is set up so that when someone is finding your website, they can instantly see, this is the right photographer for me, or not, and then guide them to fill in your contact form so that you can get those bookings or inquiries. And it just makes a huge difference.
And like I said, it's not enough to have one of them. You can have a great website, but if no one's finding it, then it's not really doing you any good. So you kind of need all of that. You need to both have a visible website and a website that's working well for you, that's set up, structured in a good way.
[00:19:12] Speaker B: Okay, so my listeners like action steps or bullet points. So can you share how something could be set up properly to get visible and to pull people in?
[00:19:28] Speaker C: Yeah. So the first thing that you want to do is remember that when you have a website, the most important part is the visible part when someone enters your website. So before you do any scrolling, that section there, that's the most important. So that's where you need to have, I would say, your best photo, the one that you're most proud of, and you want to have a clear headline straight away with who you're the photographer for, what they can expect to get from you. Kind of in just like a sentence or something. A grabbing headline, basically.
And you should also have a call to action, like a button that says book or inquire or let's get started or something like that. That's before any scrolling is involved. That's the number one thing.
[00:20:19] Speaker B: Okay, quick question. So how do you feel about pop ups that happen as soon as someone logs in?
[00:20:28] Speaker C: I would say that's probably not a good idea because it's distracting and because people generally get a little bit annoyed. I think pop ups work when they're at the right time and place. For example, after someone's been on your website for a while, and then something's, like, enticing them to see something, but if it's right away, they haven't gotten a feel for what it's about yet, you need to give them a little bit of time to make sure that we're kind of on the same page here.
[00:20:56] Speaker B: Yeah.
I think of it kind of like you're in a nice bar, not a bar, where people go to get drunk or some social gathering, and somebody sits down next to you and maybe he's kind of good looking, but before you even have a chance to check him out, he goes in and either asks for a kiss or tries to kiss you, and you're like, wait, what? And it's a no.
Whereas if he sits down and says, hey, what a great place.
Are you here with friends? Are you by yourself?
What are you drinking? Why do you like that?
And it starts showing an interest, asking questions, shares some intriguing little tidbits, and then says, I'd love to meet you for coffee sometime. And then at coffee, let's do lunch or dinner. And then you have a date. And then he walks you to your. Or she walks you to your whatever, and then goes in for a kiss. So thank you. That's what I think of pop ups, is, like, too much, too soon never works. Or if you're in a sales, you're interested in buying a car, and someone houses on you right away without asking any questions, getting to know you, helping. I'm big on the concept that we become the trusted advisor. And to me, thinking about what you're sharing that first above the fold gives some trust.
So I'm big on having photos. I like to have a little gallery of about six.
For me, personally, a big strength in my photography business is my work. I'll proudly say that it's pretty darn good.
I've earned it after 40 years to feel good about that.
And then all those little things that you see at the beginning start to build a sense of.
Let me find more. Okay, so now as we scroll down a little bit or we click to an x page, what do you think is important?
[00:23:21] Speaker C: I think it's important that you don't talk about yourself. Try to talk about your client and what your client wants. Think about it from their perspective instead of your own. So I think that is what you need to keep in mind the whole time. And in terms of the next step, I would explain a little bit more about who your client is or try to get them to reel them in, if you will. Okay, so what are they curious about? What are their problems? What can you help them with something like that to kind of get them not just interested, because that's basically the first thing you want to do, but just tell them a little bit more so they can realize, like, oh, this photographer understands us. She knows what we want. And this seems like it could be the right fit so that you can intrigue them to read more.
[00:24:17] Speaker B: So what would be for a wedding photographer, since that's your background as a photographer, what would be a first little intriguing, I know, put you on the spot here.
Ingfeld on the street. What is a good first little without being like, I do this, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
[00:24:41] Speaker C: Yeah. Well, you want to stand out. So I would take a look at who you want to work with, take a look at your ideal client and see what do they need from me? What are they interested in? What kind of a wedding do they want to have? And then kind of paint that picture for them. For example, you want to have a relaxing day surrounded by your friends and family, but you want to make sure that you don't forget anything. Kind of just like paint a picture. That's probably something that would work. Something where you're basically just painting the picture of how it can be for them, how their day can look like, how you're reading their minds almost. And then you don't have to start talking about yourself and what you do just yet. You can wait a little bit with that, because for a while, it should just be about them. And then you can say, after telling you about your day about what you might want to make sure that you don't forget any of the important moments. Here's me, I'm the photographer who can help you get just that one thing or that whole thing.
[00:25:57] Speaker B: And I like that you said, think about your ideal client. Because somebody that wants to photograph celebrities or people that are hotshots in their own world, they would want to know that you're going to be, I don't know, in the background you're going to work well, you're not going to be starstruck, whatever.
I think there would be something different that would appeal to the brides and grooms or whoever's arranging the wedding.
[00:26:35] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:26:36] Speaker B: Implying that you're going to be the utmost professional. Something like that. Whereas my ideal client might be like, I might say I'll be like having your best friend help you on that day or something, that I like that heart connection and I like putting people at ease. It's like having your trusted aunt, your favorite aunt, now that I'm not 35 anymore, there for you the whole day. So different people would have different desires.
[00:27:10] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:27:11] Speaker B: I love that. Thinking about who do you really want to work with and for?
[00:27:15] Speaker C: Yeah. And I think it's important to start there, to start by figuring out, okay, so who is my client? Who do I want to work with? And sometimes I hear like, oh, but I like everyone. I can work with anyone. It doesn't matter to me and it's just like. But it probably matters to your clients because if you are trying to be the right photographer for any kind of wedding or any kind of event or any kind of photo session, then no one's really going to feel like you're the right fit for them. And you're probably going to struggle to get enough clients and you feel like you have to lower your prices. And it's just like kind of like a vicious circle. So if you start by figuring out who do I want to work with, what kind of people can I create the best experience for? Who can I have the best feelings after working with me? Who can I give the best result and start there and then create the content of your website around that. Because so many photographers, their websites look almost the same. Like, they talk about kind of the same things, they use the same words, and then no one's going to feel like you're speaking to them. And that is, in my opinion, a huge mistake. You're missing out.
[00:28:27] Speaker B: Yeah. So when I redid my photography website, went through a lot, whole branding, hired a branding expert, spent months writing just a simple copy. Maybe a year later, I logged into a colleague of mine who, if you met the two of us, you would say, whoever's attracted to her would not be attracted to Lucy. And whoever is Lucy's ideal client, if they wanted a, that they're not going to want her. And she, with just slight changes, copied all of my words.
[00:29:15] Speaker C: It's so common.
[00:29:16] Speaker B: And sadly, she didn't understand that it was not cool. And I had to go to the professional photographers of America and have them tell her, this is derivative. And then she took some of it off, but she was arguing. Everything on there is still true about me, but the way I worded it, she's not every kid's aunt Lucy. She's a great photographer. And of course it was heartbreaking because I thought she was a good friend of mine, but I would have rather she called me and said, I love your website, could you help me? And I would easily have come up with, well, not necessarily easily, but finding words where when I revamped my website, okay, I just interrupted my own sentence, but people would come to the door and say, you are exactly who I expected to meet.
And so I think that's what you're talking about, too. Is this authentic, first of all, exploration on who would be a great fit for us, who would love to work with us that we would love, because honestly, the clients that would be drawn to her, I probably would not enjoy their day that much if it was really a personality thing, because our work was comparable, different nuances. Anyway. So to me, that's one of the things in everything that we do, is that authenticity of who we are and what the experience will be.
[00:30:56] Speaker C: No, but I agree. And I think when someone copies, because it happens to absolutely everyone, I think for most, it's not like, oh, I'm going to do something horrible. It's probably that insecurity that you mentioned, like, I don't really know how to do this. I don't know that I'm supposed to have an ideal client. I don't know how to do anything. And then that is like, oh, this sounds nice, and this sounds nice. And I think figuring out your brand and who you want to work with, that comes first. And then you can redo your website or make a website. But if you start with a website, then you are going to do that thing of like, ooh, let me take a little bit of this and a little bit of that and use those colors and those fonts and it's not you. So you need to figure out you first.
[00:31:43] Speaker B: I totally agree. In my coaching, we go through a whole fun branding. There's like three little exercises that we do. Is there something similar that you do to help people know who they are?
[00:31:56] Speaker C: Yeah, we start off by figuring out what's your story, who are you, basically. And then we work on the dream client part a little bit later so that first you figure out you, so you know who you are and who you like, and then kind of building the dream client profile based on that and then branding after that again. So to make sure that your brand is reflective, both of you and who you want to work with, because your branding is there to attract your dream client, it's not there for you to choose your favorite color because that doesn't necessarily mean anything.
[00:32:32] Speaker B: I love that you're using the term branding in a way that I think about it as well. I think in the general mind of most people, they think branding is figuring out what your client would like and putting that together. So if I think not deep, but I think surface, I want rich people.
Rich people are attracted to black and gold. So I'm going to have a black and gold website with a lot of ornate things, like if you see the photograph, if people are watching, I have beautiful gilded frames that I absolutely love for my.
Then, you know, find, like, oh, and let's use Mercedes Benz fonts or Rolls Royce or something. Well, people that have listened to my show and just our conversation so far, I don't think that would fit either one of us or attract the clients. We, yeah, that branding starts with our own personal identity and then how to communicate it in a way that says, first of all, this is like a price point. I used to advertise in the yellow pages, which everyone said was a waste of time. It is now.
And it was called San Diego Parent magazine. And I got a lot of work from both. And it's because my advertisement, just the print, it looked expensive, but comfortable and not really casual, but like high quality, but a sort of modern, feminine. And back then, it was mostly a man's world. In this industry, they'd have these very unattractive advertisements in the yellow pages, where we specialize in weddings, portraits, headshots, commercial forensics.
But I was there with a great design, simple, elegant, and I got work from it. So it communicated me to the people who expected to invest because it looked expensive. Does that make any sense?
[00:34:59] Speaker C: Oh, absolutely. And I think actually that's something that I've, at least here in Scandinavia, is kind of like a common misconception. Like I don't want to work with rich people because I want to work with people that are more like family oriented and more normal. And it's just like. But just because people have money doesn't mean that they're one type of person.
People of all kinds of varieties have a lot of money. So you can focus on people who have a lot of money and can afford what you ask. And they can have this personality that you want to work with. So there's so many layers to it. And as you say, it's important that your design attracts that kind of person that you want. You don't want just anyone. You want someone who wants that feminine energy that you describe.
[00:35:46] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:35:46] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:35:47] Speaker B: Is there anything else on the website?
[00:35:51] Speaker C: Well, I can mention some things that are important to have on your website.
[00:35:55] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:35:56] Speaker C: Yeah. So you want to make sure that you like that heading thing that I mentioned, the part above the fold. You want to have that on all your pages, not just your main page. You want to make sure that it's clear on all the pages because you don't know which page someone is going to land on. And you want to make sure that you use links or buttons throughout your page, not just in one place, because you want to make it easier for your client. You want to make it easy for them to find their way and to know what to do next. And you want to use testimonials. You want to have nice things people have said, and you don't want to hide them on a single page in your menu. You want them scattered across your website on all the pages. Something that tells whoever is curious how it's like to work with you and what they can expect.
[00:36:42] Speaker B: Great. That is such good stuff. And it's been a while since I've had just a really clear website episode on my podcast. So thank you. Good timing for that.
[00:36:57] Speaker C: Good.
[00:36:58] Speaker B: Okay, so then, the importance of a sustainable business, that's something you love to chat about. So what do you mean by that sustainable business?
[00:37:10] Speaker C: When I started out, I actually just did a podcast episode about this. When I started out, it was like, so you want to have a sustainable business and you want to make sure that it's a lasting business. It's a business where you do the things that you love and you're not going to burn out on the way because you're just doing things that you don't enjoy. It's something you can maintain, basically.
And then when I do my interviews, I ask every guest, what is a sustainable business to you? And every single person has given me a different response. So the way I see it now is when I started, it was still like there were multiple things involved, but now it's like it's so many things. They want to make sure that you have boundaries. You want to make sure that you're charging enough. You want to make sure that you're doing the things that you can keep doing. Not like your neighbor or not other photographers, you know, that can do 20 or 30 or 50 weddings a year. What do you want to do? How much do you want to work? And you kind of start there and figure out what you need to be happy. You want to make sure that you have a workflow that isn't too much work. And you learn to set boundaries and outsource. It's endless, really. And the more I learn about it, the more I realize that there are so many things that we need to get better at because most of photographers work way too much and think it's hard to say no and are told that they're too expensive and think it's hard to price themselves.
Right, whatever that means. Because you need to have a profit in your business. It's really hard to do it. It's not even a business if you're not really profitable and if you have too low prices. And marketing is also a huge part of it, which we've just covered. You need to find a way to do marketing that you can keep doing. Because if you're doing anything that you're like, I'm doing this thing, for example, Instagram or Facebook, and it's just like, it's not working out. Or if you're spending money on Facebook ads and you're going to run out of money, it's not sustainable. You can't keep doing it. So it's to figure out what do you need to keep going and to thrive. I think that is kind of like the simplest definition of what I consider being a sustainable business.
[00:39:35] Speaker B: That's a really good exploration. I'm going to ponder that in my heart more.
How do boundaries come in with sustainable business?
[00:39:48] Speaker C: Well, I think, again, it's different for everyone, but I think once you figure out what you want to do exactly like which things many photographers start out, like, oh, I can do anything. And then you keep doing until you're maybe able to cut some things. But I think if you think about it and you start cutting things before you have to, then that can be a boundary like, oh, I don't want to do senior portraits anymore, or I don't want to do weddings anymore and then saying no to that. That's a good boundary to have to know what to say to friends and family when they ask for you to work for free or when someone asks you for discounts, like all the kind of things you need boundaries around, and that's a lot, then that's going to help you out. And I think, I don't know what it is, but it seems to me like a lot of photographers are people pleasers and they just want to do so much. And the clearer you are about what's okay for you, the clearer you can communicate that, because most people don't want to take advantage of you. But if they ask you, can you do this thing? Can you edit the photos in such and such way? Can you remove that? Can you photoshop this? And you haven't told them in advance? This isn't something I do. That's not my process. Then it's harder for you to say no, and it's harder for them to realize that they're overstepping. So boundaries is so important for everyone. They make everything better. People like to know what they have to not relate to, but people like to know what they have to adhere to, in a way.
[00:41:27] Speaker B: Right.
And what I love about being in business for ourselves is because I had boundary challenges in life. Not surprising. And it was easier for me to start setting boundaries in the business, which then made it easier to have boundaries in relationships.
And I've had some friends in my life where they didn't have boundaries and they resented me because I'm. And especially as I've gone through years of therapy and books and personal growth, I've become more comfortable asking for something I'd like. And if somebody says no, then I'm fine with that. So let's negotiate. Like, let's say where you want to go for dinner. I might offer something, and someone without boundaries might be okay, that's fine. And then two or three years later, when they've had it up to here or here with my assertiveness and their inability to stand up for themselves, they're full of resentment at me and they dump me off an 80 story building and crush my heart. Because when I'm friends, when I love people, I love deeply. And so now I don't form friendships deeply with people that are not.
Except sometimes people aren't capable, and I've got the grace for that. But I don't trust friends that aren't able to say what they need and what they want, because really, I don't want to run the world. I like partnerships, you know what I mean?
The term I came up with was mutuality.
So I like where there's a nice balance and absolutely. That has served my photography and my coaching business well because I take care of what I need, but then my clients can share what they want and I can see if I can accommodate or it doesn't fit me. So it's a really good life skill, I'm sure.
[00:43:43] Speaker C: And I think this is so applicable to business as well. Because if you're the kind of photographer that says yes to things at too low a price, assignments that you don't really want, then that shines through. Because when you're kind of like begrudging a client for choosing a really cheap package or something, and you're kind of forgetting that you offered it, so why wouldn't someone say yes to that? And I think it doesn't serve you. It doesn't serve you in the long term, it doesn't serve you in the short term. I think everyone wins if you are kind of confident in what you need. Like you're explaining it, you're just saying this is how it is. And if someone doesn't want what you have to offer, if someone wants things done in a different way, it's not like they're forced to work with you. They can find someone else. And I think that's important to remember when it comes to pricing and editing style or whatever it is, you don't have to feel bad about your prices or the way that you do things. As long as you are clear on what you prefer, then that is your offer, that is your terms, and it's up to someone else if they want to take it or not, right?
[00:44:59] Speaker B: I bet there are people listening to this that are just like, I can't do that. But I hope you listen again and take that in that it's actually a favor to everybody.
[00:45:13] Speaker C: It is.
[00:45:14] Speaker B: Because then you're happy, they're happy, it's a good fit. There's not those misunderstandings.
And then you don't have to go to Facebook and say, I was devastated. This person, fill in the blank when it was really your fault for taking on someone so quick question before I ask you my wrap up questions, what is your policy with friends and family?
Do you have a policy? Because in the first two years of our career, if someone's just listening, one of the first things we're going to run into is, what do you do? And you're going to lose friendships if you don't handle it. Right. At first it's going to be icky family dinners years from now. Might be uncomfortable. So good to have a policy. What's your thoughts on that?
[00:46:10] Speaker C: It is good to have a policy. I think it really helps. When I started out, as I've mentioned before, I didn't really know and I wanted to just photograph as much as possible. And I couldn't wait for all my friends to get married so I could photograph them. And then I realized, kind of tricky when your friends are getting married and they want you to be the photographer, because it's like, are they wanting me to be the photographer because they're my friend? Is it because they're hoping to get a discount? Or is it because they actually like my photos and I didn't know what to do, so I photographed all of them. I gave them discounts. And they usually were the most difficult clients because they were like, they expected too much. They wanted me to work weekends. When I told them I only worked weekdays, they wanted to edit things in a different way. All those things. And then luckily, I had a friend in a different industry, and she's like, I don't give discounts to anyone. Not to friends, not to family. If someone wants to come to my. She's a hairdresser. If someone wants to come to me, they pay what it costs. It's not like anyone else is coming to me, giving me money, so why should I give anything to them? And when someone has a hard time with how I do things, it's just like, this is how I do it. And that's it. There's no more discussion. It's just like, this is how we do it here. And that taught me so much, because it's like, I get to own my business, I get to do things my way, right? So since then, I no longer hope for my friends to get married. And if they do, I hope that I can be a guest.
And if someone wants me to photograph other things, then I'll happily do it. But the price is the price. And I would happily give them something, like some extra files or something as like a bonus gift. But I need to know that they will pay my full price so that I don't get left with the feeling of they only chose me because I'm cheaper or whatever the reason. So for me, for the way I feel things, I need to make sure that I'm chosen because they like my photos and they actually want me as a photographer. And then I can be nice on the other end, if that makes sense, right?
What's your policy.
[00:48:33] Speaker B: So it's full price or free.
So, like my niece and my nephew, I've told them, anytime you can get time to get in front of my camera, I will photograph. And now, back when it was film, they would need to pay, like, $10 apiece for prints or pay my cost for whatever they want. I wasn't going to spend $500 in printing, so they pay the cost when it's full price. So if they're close enough to discount, then really they're close enough to do it.
[00:49:16] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:49:16] Speaker B: Otherwise I do full price. But just like you, I'll have surprise.
Yeah. So with my cousin's daughter, still a cousin, and this wedding in Indiana, she had wanted me to be her photographer since she was, like, 15. I'd done some pictures of her, and she's like, I've never felt more beautiful. Lucy, I always want you to do my wedding. Well, the price I proposed was out of her budget, and I kind of did it a little on the high side because I honestly would rather have just been a guest. And so then what I did for her was free, and there was no expectation, and she didn't ask.
If I'd have said, oh, I'll do half of what I'd normally charge, I would have resented that.
And she would have been grateful, being who she is. But I would have been kicking myself because it was a lovely day at this castle in the middle of a rural middle of America with fields and little forests and valleys, and it was just delightful. And I got to only do what I wanted. But, yeah, full price or free.
[00:50:38] Speaker C: I actually take back my answer because it is true. I would give some people for free as well, of course, my siblings or something like that. I would, of course, do it for free. It's just that it hasn't come up. So I didn't really think. But there are cases I would do.
[00:50:54] Speaker B: For free as want it. It's selfish. I want pictures of the babies in my family.
Or I had a neighbor whose daughter was leaving for Japan for two years, and I seen this lovely young woman since she was in a little carriage and then walking and then running, and I just said, throw on some black clothes and let me do some pictures for you. And so I gave them a few, but then I let them buy some at whatever they said. Something like, I think we could come up with a couple of, made this package that was like $5,000 worth of photographs, and they had no expectation, and they're absolutely grateful.
That's so different.
[00:51:49] Speaker C: It's so different.
[00:51:50] Speaker B: So different. And it just felt so good.
And I don't need to be scrambling to get some money from friends and family. Yeah. It just gets so dang awkward.
And also, they don't trust much.
[00:52:06] Speaker C: I know it's something with that. And I think the discounts makes kind of. Everyone feels like they're losing. Like, you feel like you're not getting paid enough, and they feel like they're paying too much, and it's just like, no.
[00:52:20] Speaker B: And I love what you said about. And we're not sure if they hired us because they think we're going to be a good deal or if they really want us. Now, every now and then I have done a trade.
If somebody absolutely has something I want, and I know they're going to follow through, but otherwise, trades are also very.
[00:52:44] Speaker C: Tricky because they are so tricky. I've never been on the winning end of a trade ever.
[00:52:51] Speaker B: I did a trade. There was this lovely lavender lotion that I found, and the woman's website and her photos were terrible. And so I traded her for like $500 worth of this incredible lotion that I still have some. I wonder if it's still good. So it was a direct, but the worst. I did a trade. Oh, once I did a trade for just extra prints that didn't cost me much. And her husband owned a place called the soup plantation, and so I traded many hundreds of dollars of free food. So when there's a direct win win. But the one that failed me was he was a house painter, and we traded for priming or painting. I don't know if it was a full painting or priming my house. And he kept putting me off because he needed the paying clients. Eventually, I got it done, and I was not going to deliver the wedding album until it was done, but I learned a lot from that. That was early on.
[00:54:01] Speaker C: Yeah. It can be so tricky.
[00:54:03] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I'm so excited that we get to talk some more on your podcast because it's just such a natural flow and you and I are so much on the same page.
[00:54:14] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:54:14] Speaker B: I can't wait. Appreciate that. All right, two last questions. First of all, I know that you have a free gift and you'd like people to find you and get in touch. So what are you offering? How do they find that? How do people get in touch with you?
[00:54:32] Speaker C: Okay. I don't actually have that link in front of me. That's a little bit of shame.
[00:54:38] Speaker B: It'll be in the show notes, or you can reach out to her and she'll send you the link. Right.
[00:54:44] Speaker C: So what is the gift?
So it's an SEO workbook, which is a little bit of a shame. We didn't really talk much about SEO, but one of the great powers of your website is not just having someone work their way through it, but it's also being able to get found using Google, for example, through SEO. So it's an SEO workbook that's going to help you to figure out what you need to do or how you can improve your website so that it's more likely to show up in search results.
[00:55:13] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:55:13] Speaker C: Such a powerful way of getting booked.
[00:55:15] Speaker B: So they go to your website or they send you an email and say, hero on the profitable photographer. Where's the link?
[00:55:24] Speaker C: Yeah, it's probably easiest if they send me a message on Instagram. I'm at invilcolmes, and they can, of course, go to your show notes and find the link. Or I can even set up a link on my website, invilcolnes.com seoworkbook.
[00:55:43] Speaker B: Okay, great. All right, last question. Is there either something that you were like, oh, I wish I could give them some tips on this that we didn't cover or just a takeaway that you want people to be thinking about?
[00:56:01] Speaker C: Well, there are so many things to say about websites, and I feel like any photographer should and could probably do a lot with their websites to make it work better. I've done revamping of gorgeous photography websites where it's like, oh, you're just missing these few pieces and then you're going to see a huge difference.
So I think just putting a little bit of effort into your website, have someone go through it that doesn't know what it's all about and see how easy it is for them to book a session. Just use your website more. Get rid of the stuff that you don't want to do anymore. Just make it better.
[00:56:41] Speaker B: Good. Yeah, that'll make a huge difference. Well, thank you so much. I want to remind people to stay tuned for my quickie wrap up so that you can be sure that some of those gems that you're like, oh, yeah, I remember that. Well, thank you again, this was such a fun conversation, and I know that all around the world, people's minds are blown by your amazing information and perspective on things. So really grateful.
[00:57:11] Speaker C: Thank you.
[00:57:12] Speaker B: You're welcome.
Well, I had a nice little chat that you missed with ingvelt after I stopped the recording, and now I'm back, just reminding you, you can go to lucydumascoaching.com lucy with an I and I have a little ebook called ten big ideas for marketing in the real world. You might want to check out. And if you're ever coming to San Diego, I have a fabulous one bedroom vacation rental. I'm near the zoo downtown. The beach is 8 minutes away. It has all five stars over the last nine.
You know, if that's something, you're like, oh, and maybe Lucy would take me to lunch. Yes, I would.
All right, quick wrap up here. First of all, we talked about the benefits of people who are introverts and how we have not we. I'm sometimes introverted, but basically I'm the opposite. That introverts can have the superpower of being good listeners and really paying attention. And as a photographer and a business person, that's building a relationship, that can be really helpful because the attention goes to our clients and not ourselves wanting to be seen and valued. So I celebrate those of you who consider yourself introverts, that you honestly have some gifts that other people don't.
And then ingfeld talked about the power of our website.
The reason we got into this introverted conversation is because she is not someone that finds it easy to always be getting seen on Facebook and posts and regular things. But with a powerful website, it's out there attracting people in a quiet and steady way. So some of her tips be visible. Have your best photos and a clear headline above the fold, meaning as soon as they log in and having a button, that's a call to action. Before you scroll down, figure out who your ideal clients are and then address that in the website so that people start to see, oh, this might be someone that would be right for me. The design should attract who we're looking for. So once we establish who might be a great fit for us, then how the design expresses to them what the experience of working with us will be. That is where the power can come in, she said. Have headings on all pages, use links and buttons, make it easy to navigate, and have testimonials on every single page. And then we had a nice conversation about what to do about friends and family in businesses. Because honestly, it's very tricky and it's hard to lose friends over this. And that can happen. So when you learn from others, learn from those of us that have learned the hard way, you're going to be able to keep those friends, not get resentments, not feel used, and get a kind of respect for what you do from people that you know. All right, so that's it. If you go to her Instagram account, which is her name on Instagram. You can ask her how to get her book. That's a workshop on search engine optimization.
And stay tuned for whoever my next guest will be, or whatever my next solo episode will be. And thank you all so much for continuing to support. I mean, you're just one person listening, so I thank you for listening and supporting this show. Bye for now.
[01:01:29] Speaker A: You have been listening to the highly profitable photographer with Lucy Dumas. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please rate, subscribe, review, and share. To connect one on one and learn more about our coaching programs, just go to lucydumascoaching.com. Until next time, go have fun photographing and selling your work.
