[00:00:03] Speaker A: You're listening to sustainable photography, a podcast all about business tips, inspiration and confidence building. I'm Ingvild Kolnes, the host of this podcast. And after over a decade as a photographer, I now help talented photographers run sustainable businesses. And for full transparency, you should know that I'm a mentor with paid off ever. And I will probably mention some of those in this episode. Last year, I realized that one thing I was really craving was a business network. I found a group in Oslo, and last fall I went there and I heard a lecture with Tanya Geisler. She spoke beautifully about the impostor complex, and I just knew I had to have her on the podcast. Hi, Tanya. I'm so excited to talk with you today. Can you start by just letting us know who you are? [00:00:58] Speaker B: Sure. Thank you so much for inviting me. It's delightful to be here with you. Yeah. I'm Tanya Geisler. I am a leadership coach. I live in Canada, in Toronto, specifically on the land of the Shenigu people. And I have a particular fascination and expertise in the imposter complex. And I didn't necessarily go looking for it. Let me just say that I sought it out. It's an experience that has followed me most of my professional career in all spaces that matter. So when something keeps presenting itself to you, you have to get curious and figure out what is going on, which is what I committed myself to in the last decade and a half. Coming up on two decades. Yeah. [00:01:49] Speaker A: Okay. Exciting. Exciting. Yeah. Because that's what we're going to talk about today. I heard you do a talk in Oslo. Was it in November? [00:02:00] Speaker B: It was the end of October. And it was so. Yeah. What a. Yeah. [00:02:05] Speaker A: And it was on the impostor complex. Can you explain a bit more about what that is? [00:02:11] Speaker B: Sure. So you've just opened a big door for me here. Right. Because there is a lot to say about this, but I always like to attribute the teachers, which I think is really important. So the impostor phenomenon is the term that was coined by clinical psychologists Pauline Clance and Suzanne Imes back in 1978. And so it was this experience that they recognized in these women in academia at Oberlin College. And they noticed these women. As successful as they looked, these women seemed incapable of internalizing their success. So any success that they had, they would say, oh, I got lucky, or it just happened at one time, or it was just a fluke. So external factors they would assign to the reason for their success. But any failures, they were more than able to internalize, they were more than able to accept and take ownership of, but not their successes. So that's really the hallmark, I would say, of what the imposter complex experience is. And there's clearly much more to say about it than that. But that's the piece. So if somebody's listening and they say, yeah, actually I have a really hard time accepting my successes, but I'm more than able to accept my failures, then you might be experiencing the imposter complex. And I have, again, so much good news to share about that, too. But that's the overarching piece. [00:03:48] Speaker A: Yeah, that's great. I know that a lot of photographers and creatives are struggling with thinking that they're not good enough. Things could always be better. I got lucky, all of that. And another thing that I know is so common is perfectionism. Like not being able to let go until you've worked on a photo for hours and hours, just getting really caught up in little details that no one except for you would even notice. And it's just not good enough until you've done everything you could possibly do. That is, as far as I can remember, also part of the impostor complex. Am I right? [00:04:29] Speaker B: Yes, ma'am. So two things here. One is, I want to answer your question, and I also want to, I know that some people are scratching their head right now wondering why we're naming this experience as impostor complex and not syndrome, because usually we understand this as impostor syndrome. I specifically use impostor complex because syndrome usually means a clinical diagnosis. And I think that it's important that we recognize this isn't a clinical diagnosis, this is not going to be found in the medical journals, but it will be found in, obviously, clinical psychology, but it's not a diagnosis. So it's an experience, it's a phenomenon, and I like to name that. So we can dial down the agitation that people can feel when they hear this. So it's a lot like fear. It's a lot like something that just kind of travels with us and it affects us differently. And the way it affects us, it wants to keep us out of action. It wants to have us doubt what we are capable of, and it wants to keep us alone and isolated. And so because of that, we hide out in really specific behaviors, perfectionism being one of them. And there are also twelve really specific lies that it has us believe. But we can leave that to decide for the moment. But back to your question, the reality is, and you named it really beautifully, we feel like we haven't done enough of all of the twelve lies. That it has us believe there is one piece of truth, and that is that there's always room for improvement. Right? There's always room to dig a little bit deeper. And so that becomes this kind of really tough to navigate space between when it's done and when it's perfect, right? And I think of that as I feel it in my body, as I talk about it, because it feels like this angst, this ache, it's never going to be enough. But the truth is, there's always a ready enough place. There's always a place where it's enough for now. And I think we need to really dabble in that space because I think it's reductive to say there is no such thing as perfect. I mean, there is. That's true, too. There really is no such thing as perfect. But I want to speak to that person who functions at a really high level, who values doing a job really well done, who values beauty, who values excellence. I see you. And we love that about you. It's the reason we hire you for your impeccable eye. And this becomes this kind of self fulfilling prophecy where the perfectionism keeps us from doing our best work, keeps us from taking action, keeps us from shipping, and that creates a lot of different problems. So I know that I do not need to tell you that it creates a lot of different problems, but it clearly does. And so, actually, perfectionism is just one of the six ways that we hide out from the impostor complex. And all of the ways that we hide out, paradoxically mean that we don't want to feel like the imposter. So we go hide out in this behavior. But in so doing, we actually make the impostor complex experience worse. So that's the pattern interrupt that I'm really interested in people exploring. So let's just play with perfectionism for a moment and say, I don't want anybody to find out that I'm not supposed to be here. I certainly don't want my client to find out that they shouldn't have hired me. So I'm going to make really good ensure that my work is absolutely pristine, that it is without a blemish, that it is so exquisitely perfect that nobody will ever doubt for one moment that I have a right to be here. And so then we work it and work it and work it and overwork it and overwork it, and we work so hard to make sure that it is perfect above critique. Then we look around and we go, well, nobody else has to work this hard. Oh, my gosh. I actually feel emotional when I say that. Oh, I actually feel emotional. Nobody else has to work this hard. Clearly, I am the imposter, right? So we think that it's going to protect us, but it actually makes our experience worse. And each one of these, the other behavioral traits, diminishment, people pleasing comparison, procrastination, leaky boundaries, those are other ways that we will hide out. And it's the same thing. We'll go to these behaviors. We don't want to feel like the impostor, but the more we hang out there, the more we operate from there, the more like the impostor we feel. So that's typically how it shows up for those who experience perfectionism. So the two things I would love to have people know is the reason you want things to be perfect has everything to do with your beautiful value of excellence, right? That's a good thing. You like things done well. And, I mean, I would say that for most people that experience imposter complex, they have beautiful values of integrity. They want to do things right, they have beautiful values of proficiency. They want to get better at it, and they want to do things in a really excellent way. So that's the only reason you're experiencing this, because you have those gorgeous values. So my first thing is, let's not make ourselves wrong for having this experience, but now let's navigate it and say, okay, I get it. I like things to be done really beautifully and excellently, and this is keeping me out of action. What am I going to do about that? Makes sense. [00:10:51] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Can you explain a little bit about the other five ways as well? [00:10:57] Speaker B: Sure. [00:10:58] Speaker A: Because maybe some people are feeling that. Okay, so perfectionism, that's definitely what I am struggling with. But someone else might feel like, oh, no, I've got a handle on that, but I still feel like an imposter. And maybe they're struggling with something else. And I'm sure that you can also struggle with a couple of things at the same time. They're not exclusive, are they? [00:11:23] Speaker B: They most certainly are not. In fact, I say that they ping pong off of each other. So I usually talk about this sort of in a circular manner because they're all of equal weightiness. And often we can get a handle on our perfectionism, but then we'll pop one of the other behaviors, part of the challenge of it, to navigate the whole structure. So perfectionism is something I would say that I have learned to have a handle on in a really specific way that I'm happy to share in a moment. But the other ones are people pleasing. Leaky boundaries, comparison, diminishment, procrastination, and of course, our trusty friend, perfectionism. And so people pleasing. This is where we're going to. We don't want anybody to find out that we are the imposter. So we're going to use our charm and our likability and make sure that everybody likes us. But then when we are given opportunities, we think it's just because they like us that we were invited or that we were referred or that we were given another chance just because they like us, not because we are deeply skilled and talented and brilliant at what we do. So we're going to discount our abilities and our talents. Does that make sense? [00:12:39] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. [00:12:41] Speaker B: Nodding away. Leaky boundaries. I don't want anybody to find out that I'm the imposter. So I'm going to say yes when I mean no or no when I mean yes. And then when I do this over a period of time, I do start to feel like the imposter because I'm not actually standing in an opinion that is my own. I have allowed my edges to become leaky. I've let in. I'm working with clients I shouldn't be working with. I'm saying yes to opportunities that I really know that I must not say yes to. And then with diminishment, maybe with diminishment, I actually feel pretty proud of my work. I feel pretty strong in what I'm doing. But I know that's not how most people feel. And I've been taught to not think too much of myself. I learned about Janteloven when I was an Oslos, so I think this is probably resonating quite a little bit here. [00:13:42] Speaker A: Yep. [00:13:43] Speaker B: Right. Do not think too much of yourself. Do not be too audacious. Do not brag. Do not take up space. Do not make it about you. Do not think that you are special. How am I doing? Did I get some of them? [00:13:53] Speaker A: That's perfect. That's exactly what it is. And I know that anyone listening from Scandinavia will be like, yep, that's how it is. [00:14:01] Speaker B: That's how it is. That's how it know. And I can know again, I'm in North America, so we don't have. We have. We have never named it in the way so precisely in that we have. We've certainly experienced natal poppy syndrome that will clip ourselves down. But that's part of our conditioning. That's one of the things that we hear as people who've been conditioned as women. Don't take up too much space. Don't brag, don't be too big, don't be too audacious. All of the same things. So that's the messaging. So it's not safe to be shiny. So we dim our light, and we don't talk about our exhibits. We don't talk about our work. We don't talk about the things that we feel really good about. And then we start to feel that sense of diminishment. We start to believe that less confident artist statement that we've written about ourselves. Right. [00:14:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:14:57] Speaker B: And people can't find us because we've diminished. So that actually starts to make this feeling even that much more pronounced. People aren't finding us, so how can we be that good after all? So do you see how it kind of gets you coming and going? If we're not talking about our work in a public way, they're not going to find you. [00:15:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:15:16] Speaker B: That's all there is to that. And then that, again, it validates that belief that we are not supposed to be here. Oh, maybe I'm not such hot stuff after all. So that's diminishment. [00:15:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:15:30] Speaker B: Comparison. Of course, we are constantly trying to see how we're stacking up, particularly if we feel like we are not supposed to be here. So we'll look to other people and see how brilliant they are. And of course, we're never going to stack up to that, because we are comparing what they're showing on their beautifully curated Instagram feed with what our perception of our reality is. Those two do not stack up very well. I don't know. I don't mean to burst anybody's bubble, but that's just the truth. We don't do a very good job of accurately evaluating ourselves, particularly when we compare to others. So we'll always come up short. And then procrastination. I don't want anybody to find out that I'm the imposter. So I might avoid doing the thing, right? I might avoid doing the writing. I might avoid doing the pitch. And then, of course, I create all sorts of stories about what's going to happen and I'm going to fail, and it's going to be terrible. And so when we finally get around to doing the thing, we don't do the job that we know that we are actually capable of, and we get less optimal results, which proves to us that we shouldn't have been given the opportunity in the first place. The other possibility, of course, is that we allow all of that fear and worry and anxiety and sleeplessness to kind of catch up with us. But at the very last minute we do the thing and we actually knock it out of the park. I'm not sure if that's a great reference. Does that translate baseball term? [00:17:06] Speaker A: I think, I'm sure that we're so exposed to american culture that we understand, you understand the significance of it? [00:17:15] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay, well, so we do a really good job. But then we think, hey, wait a minute, maybe they didn't have very high standards. [00:17:24] Speaker A: They didn't know any better. [00:17:26] Speaker B: They didn't know any better. They didn't know any better. So one way or the other, trust me, we are going to allow that confirmation bias to kick in. I believe that I'm an imposter. I'm going to look for the evidence that I'm an imposter. So each and every one of these behaviors we go to them to avoid feeling like the imposter, but then we actually feel more like the imposter. And then to your know, maybe I get a handle on the procrastination because maybe I read Mel Robbins'latest book and I've got some confidence hacks. So great. I'm not procrastinating anymore. But maybe my people pleasing has just popped up. Maybe I got a handle on my people pleasing but now my diminishment has popped up. So they will ping pong, they will bounce off of each other. So it's important that we understand the totality of the structure and recognize that we have our own natural set points. For me, I tend to, like I said, I have a pretty decent handle on my perfectionism. I wouldn't have been in business for the last 1718 years if I really allowed the perfectionism to run the show because I would never do what needs to be done very quickly. Thereafter, my diminishment would show up. So there are ways that I don't still take up as much space as I want to and I've got an eye on that. But the one that I have a really hard time with fully extracting myself is the people pleasing. It's so ingrained in me that it's the thing that I continue to work with to make sure that I'm in full integrity. [00:19:05] Speaker A: Can you get rid of impostor complex? Can you work to improve it? Or how can you work to improve it? If someone is listening and it's like, yeah, I can feel several of these, but that's just how it is. What can they do? What can we do? [00:19:22] Speaker B: Okay. Honestly, when I say there are like three different doors that I want to go through right now. So the answer is, do we ever get rid of it? I don't think so. I don't think we ever really fully get rid of it. I think as long as we are doing things that are important, things that challenge us, things that stretch us, things that are important, things that are meaningful, I don't think we ever fully get rid of it. And I think that that's probably a good thing. A little like fear. You don't ever really fully get rid of fear. You just learn to navigate it. So I say this is about turning the lights on faster and going, oh, I see you in faster complex. I must be doing something that's really important. So I feel like that's really the best that we can do. When you talk to people who are older, who have a lot more life behind them, I think that they will tell you that they don't have imposter complex because they have so many data points that show how capable they really are. And so I think that over time it does start to soften. But I think as long as, again, you are continuing to swing out and do big, bold, audacious, important things, I think it's going to show up because I mentioned that it wants to keep you out of action. It wants to have you doubt your capacity, and it wants to keep you alone and isolated. So most people who don't struggle with it on an ongoing basis are using one of those strategies, or all three. So if they're staying in action, it's because they've looked at all of the objections and they've said, okay, I get what's happening here. I think I can't do this. But actually, I know that that is my fear. I know that's my smaller thinking. I know that's my smaller perspective. I know that that's my perfectionism trying to keep me safe. I understand all of that. And then working with that sort of internal dialogue is how we get through it. The other is, if it has us doubt our capacity, we need to remind ourselves all of the times that we have been here at this precipice of expansion, this moment of embracing the big and the new. And we always felt scared. We always felt, will I, can I. Is it worth it? What's going to happen? So whether it's a huge new contract or maybe you're pivoting in your business, it's going to feel big and scary. But you've been here before. It might not look the exact same, but you've been at this moment of will. I won't. I what's going to happen? So if we remind ourselves all of those times that we have been here, that will give us the tenacity to be able to move into the next. And then the third is you're not supposed to go any of this alone. So it wants to keep you alone and isolated. So it's vitally important that you gather people around you who can remind you all that you are capable of, all that you have done, and all that is still available to you, whether that's your network of peers and colleagues, coaches, friends, family, really making sure that other people, that you let other people into your internal experience. So overarchingly, I would say that people who seem to have a handle on it, first of all, probably don't as much as you think, because again, things always look a little bit different from the outside. But also they probably apply that they will say, yes, I lean into my coach or I look at my proof of all that I have already done, that gives me confidence to do the next. Or I look at my patterns as I show up. So they have strategies to work with them. So that's what I'm here to offer. What are those strategies? And then the other thing I would say is understanding which of the behavioral traits that you go to. So you named a lot of the fabulous folks listening might struggle with perfectionism. Well, if we look to that beautiful value of excellence that this upholds, first of all, we can dial down making ourselves wrong for it and we say, okay, yeah, no, I get it. This is how I was made. This is how I was conditioned. I was taught to be number one. I was taught that might be a slightly more north american perspective, but in any case, I was taught to work towards being the best. So first of all, don't make yourself wrong for that. And then recognize that you have this beautiful value of excellence. In my greater body of work, I talk about this iconic experience that I shared with you when I was in Oslo. I think we all want to be iconic in some way, shape or form, and there's a whole framework for it. But I like to think about the imposter complex. You can't spell iconic without ist imposter complex twice. Meaning the moment you decide you want to be iconic, you're going to experience imposter complex. And then it also shows up at the end. Right? You've been in this experience for a while, and now you want to do something else. You want to step into a different role. Oh, the imposter complex is going to show up again. So I like the word play here because it kind of reminds you that it's kind of a traveling companion. But I think, too, that it's important to think about what does that value of excellence for perfectionists mean? So I love people to play with iconic identities. For folks who feel like they struggle with perfectionism, this value of excellence invites the perspective that you are a CEO, that you are a CEO. So think Beyonce. Think of really powerful people who make big decisions but prioritize excellence or, and prioritize excellence. So if we think like a CEO, and that's why I say, I wouldn't have been in business for 18 years if I allowed perfectionism to continue to inform my every decision. I would never ship an offer. I would never be finished with a coaching call. I would never leave the stage. Because there's always more to be said, there's always more to be done. There's always more polish to assign. But I've got other stages to get to. I've got other coaches to clients to coach. I've got other chapters to write. I have to keep shipping and moving on. If you think like a CEO, that's what ceos know that you have to ship. You have to ship quickly. That doesn't mean that there isn't room for improvement. Of course there's room for improvement. So they said at the very top of the call, but there's room for version 2.0, there's room for iteration. And I really think that that's what the CEO knows above all else. The CEO also knows that they have to delegate, but they can't do it all on their own. So if you're somebody who perseverates and perseverates and takes so long to ship something, maybe build in some accountability, maybe bring somebody along for the ride and say, tell me when this is ready to go, because I can't trust myself when I get so into this project. Right. So we can create different structures around us that are in the theme of gathering the people around you, reminding yourself when you've been here before and staying in action. [00:27:09] Speaker A: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, because when you were in Oslo, you did say that every one of these different parts of the imposter complex comes with a positive value, like you mentioned, for perfectionism. [00:27:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:24] Speaker A: Can you say some of the ones for the others as well? Because I think it's good to know that it's not coming from a bad place. [00:27:34] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:27:34] Speaker A: That it's coming from somewhere, that it's kind of your power, just maybe taking it a step too far. [00:27:43] Speaker B: Yeah. Thank you so much. That's exactly it. And that makes me. I have to tell you, on a personal level, that makes me so happy that that was one of your key takeaways, because I'm part of the self development industry. This is a $43 billion industry. $43 billion. That's a lot of money invested in making sure that people feel lousy about themselves. So that's not what I'm here to do. I don't want people to feel badly about themselves, to make themselves wrong for this experience. I want them to look at this experience like, okay, what is here to teach me? Or what I could say, what is the golden shadow that this experience holds for me? So, perfectionism indicates that we have a beautiful and strong value of excellence, people pleasing. This means that I value inclusivity. Right. I want to make sure that people feel heard, held, understood, seen. And so sometimes that's the reason people pleasers can struggle with their pricing. They don't want people to feel undervalued or unappreciated or it's the reason we will over deliver, because we want people to know how much we value them. We want them to feel included in our care. So you didn't ask this, but I'll say if you are a people pleaser, you have this beautiful value of inclusivity. And I think that that suggests that your iconic identity might be that of the host, meaning you do a beautiful job of gathering people. Maybe you curate groups very comfortably. Maybe there's some kind of a program where you can gather people or community that you can gather people. This is actually where you are very natural. That's your tendency. And as a host, sometimes you think that people are just there for the lovely food or the lovely playlist or the flowers, but no, they're actually here to be with you. So the value, though, of the people pleasing is that you really value inclusivity. It's not too different from folks who have leaky boundaries. Their value is that of generosity. So they want to make sure that people feel, again, included, but that they feel like they have access. So their iconic identity is that of the healer. They have so much to give, and they want other people, again, to have access to it. The healer needs to remember to put themselves in their own circle of care, though. Right? So that's that tender balance between the generosity and then also holding those boundaries a little bit firmer because they need to make sure that they are also attending to themselves as much as they're attending other people. [00:30:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:39] Speaker B: If you have diminishment, actually, you have a beautiful value of humility. And I think the humility is really a gorgeously underrated value. So we have this again, we've usually been conditioned, but we also don't want to feel like that other people have been discounted. We want other people to feel like their contributions matter as well. The iconic identity that I invite people to consider who have diminishment is that of the visionary. Right? So they have these big, beautiful ideas that they're not supposed to hide. They're not supposed to hoard their brilliant ideas. So they have to get out in front of that, because those ideas are for everybody as well. If you have comparison, usually this means that you have a beautiful value of connection. You're seeing how other people connect, how ideas connect, how people connect, how you connect, how you relate. So your iconic identity is that of the maven. The maven sees everything. The maven's challenge, however, is to be able to focus on their own inner world as much as they're focused on the outer world. The procrastination means that you have a beautiful value of discernment. It just means that you are discerning, that you take your time to consider the best outcomes for all in a world that's so fast paced. We need those people, and I call those the stages. They are the people who are mindful, careful, thoughtful, and help us to inspire us to make better decisions as well. And then, of course, our perfectionism shows the value of excellence, which invites the CEO identity. And the CEO really just needs to make sure that they are gathering the people around them to help keep them in action, to remember, to ship, and then also just remember that perfectionism is kind of a hungry ghost, and it never, ever gets fully satisfied. So creating structures around that, I spend a lot of time talking to people who are leaders. Whether they have fully stepped into that or not, they're leaders. And when I think about leadership and where we are in the world right now with such a challenge of leadership, in so many ways, if we look across the world, I think about these values, that excellence, that humility, that inclusivity, that generosity, connection, discernment, those are extraordinarily powerful leadership values. And that's the kind of world I'm interested in living in. When our leaders prioritize those values, that's what I'm here for. [00:33:47] Speaker A: Do you have an overview of this on your website? That the listeners can go check out. [00:33:51] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I mean, what I have is there's a free quiz on my site, Tanya Geisler.com quiz, where people can go and find out which of the iconic identities is most like them. [00:34:05] Speaker A: Oh, even better, at least at the. [00:34:08] Speaker B: Moment that they filled it out because again, to your point, they will bounce back and forth. So today maybe you got an email that has you feeling a little diminishy. So that's probably what will show up in that quiz. But tomorrow maybe it's something different. You'll find that. And then I guess if you were to sign up for the emails, there will be a couple of emails that would come, that would show you what they all are. And then of course, feel free to subscribe anytime. [00:34:39] Speaker A: Perfect. Sometimes things aren't going as well as you want them to. You might be feeling stuck. You might feel like you're not making enough money. You might feel like you're paying too much taxes and that you don't have enough money to invest in your business. You might feel like your prices are way too low and no one's going to pay if you increase them. This is something that most of us feel and think at some point while we have a business. And the most important thing that you can do to help yourself is to work on your mindset. That's why I've created a free mindset resource for you. And you can go to englishcones.com mindset to download it for free. So I'm sure you've worked with a lot of people with this stuff over the years. Do you have any success stories that you can share with us? [00:35:42] Speaker B: I mean, in so many different ways, I think every client is a success story. And that's not a handy little answer. It really is. The moment we recognize what's actually going on and they start seeing this leadership edge, that recognizing that value underscores for them. It's incredibly powerful. I will tell you, this just came up to me as I just came up to me. I was working with somebody who is truly, truly, truly brilliant. And when I start working with somebody, I'll have them go through this exercise of bolstering their authority thesis, meaning they go through all of the things that they have ever done in their life. Now that sounds tedious and kind of boring and maybe a little challenging. It brings up a lot of different things for people at different times. And she's very smart. She's done a lot of internal work. So of course, when she saw this, she was like, wow, I guess, sure. If this is what you want me to do, I guess I'll go ahead and do it. And she's a little bit resistant. And she did it because she knows if you're investing in a coach, you better do what the coach says, because they have their reasons, to a degree. Let me just say that very carefully. To a degree, do not listen to any coach who asks you to do just anything. But in any case, she had done her doodle, and she knew that who I said it was. So she did this process, and she said, every time I do this, I feel a little bit overwhelmed. Then she said, but there's something in the way that you prompted me, and I knew why you were asking me these questions, because you wanted to remind me, like I said before, all the times I had been here at this precipice of my expansion, and she said, for all the number of times that I've done this, do you know that I forgot to write that I have a PhD? I forgot that I did a PhD, that I did an exercise like this fairly recently. And she said, just even in recognizing the effort that I went into doing this thing, that I had already almost forgotten that I had done the rigor, the challenge, the investment of time and energy and effort, and I've completely discounted that. She said, when I remembered that, everything else became that much more available. So, yeah, I have lots of stories about working with people, and what is it everybody wants to hear? That they ten x their income and they got the promotion, and then they got the gig, and I've got nothing like tons and tons of those stories you can find on my website. But I think about that moment so much, because so much of what I'm talking about is simple, but it's not easy. And the moment you give yourself over to really getting serious about your success, serious about what your capacity will bear, and really honest with yourself, there are untold gems that are available for you to mine. Because this block, and there was no emotional reason. It wasn't like there was any trauma that was connected to it, that had it hidden. She just was going through the motions of, sure, I did this and I did that and I won this and I survived this, but she wasn't giving it her full attention. So when we really dig in a little bit deeper, there's always some golden light and some golden shadow for us to explore. [00:39:20] Speaker A: So when you're struggling with impostor complex, you're usually missing something because you're holding yourself back. You're procrastinating on things or whatever it might be. Is it mindset that we need to work on? Is it our thoughts, or is there something concrete that we can do to start making some progress? [00:39:44] Speaker B: Well, I would argue that mindset is concrete, but that's just me. Okay. But I would also say, no, I was being a little bit cheeky, and I would still say that that is the truth of it, the thing that's usually holding you back. So if we think about the imposter complex at the very front end, it's very concerned about how we belong, where we are, stacking up against other people in our tribe. Literally our tribe. Right. We're a tribal people. So that's the big point. It's trying to see where we are, how we belong. So one of the first things I have people do is consider that it's actually not a fear of failure that they have. It's actually a fear of success, because that means in either way, whether we are way out in front or way behind, we're not part of the Pack, we're not part of the tribe. And I think that that's the first place that people will get hooked. We have this tendency to assume it's that we think that we're going to fail, which is why it feels incongruous for us, because we actually know. We know that we have the a pluses next to our names. We know that we have the designations, the awards, or whatever it is, but it's actually more of that. What happens if I become a wild success? What happens to my community? How will people relate to me? So I think that's actually the first thing that I would have people look at, because we're so conditioned to fear failure, particularly those of us who are perfectionists, that I actually think it's worth considering we might actually be fear of success. Fearful of success. [00:41:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:41:32] Speaker B: Because everything's going to change, or that's at least our belief. Right. And then you asked, are there concrete steps that we can take, or is it just mindset? And then I said, I think mindset also. [00:41:45] Speaker A: Yeah. Because I think that when you think like, oh, you need to work on your mindset. And the way you think to me and to a lot of other people, it feels like something that's okay. It's something that I have to sit and think about. So if you have concrete steps that we can take and work on, please feel free to share them with us. [00:42:06] Speaker B: There's so much in that statement, by the way, so I really appreciate you bringing it here. There's so much more that I can say. Clearly, clearly, clearly. I think it's also important to know that we all experience it differently, that we are depending on our race, our gender, our class. There are so many factors that will contribute to how much we are experiencing this period. Period. So we're all going to approach it a little bit differently. So our job is to figure out what our own personal edge is, right. So there is never going to be a one size fits all. I've tried to bring it down to those three major categories of if it wants to keep you out of action, you got to figure out what's going on here. Is this an internal objection that you have? Is this a realistic objection? There's a blockage. Is there somebody that's actually an actual critic who's preventing you from doing the thing? We have to understand the nature of that. If it continues to tell us all the things we can't do. Again, we have to bolster our authority thesis, remind ourselves all that we have done. And so that's a very concrete step, is to look at all the things that we have done and survived and healed and created and delivered and sold all of those things. They stack up to create this proof, this evidence list of things that we've done. And then of course, if it wants to keep us alone and isolated, make sure we're gathering the people. So those are three really specific places to go. But I do think it starts with the identity, how we see ourselves. So I'm working on my book, and let me be honest, I've been working on this book for coming up on ten years. Part of the reason it's taking me so long, yes, is to do with some of the perfectionism. But also my analysis keeps deepening. Right. So the book keeps shifting and changing. I say things now I never would have said ten years ago. So this book is in itself iterative. But if I'm going to get this book written in the way that I want to, I need to see myself as a published author. So that starts with the identity. I will not be able to get this book done unless I see myself as that published author. Not going to happen. I can't be a coach with a little side job of writing a book on the side. That's never going to happen. So I need to adjust and get myself into that space. So many of the folks that are listening right now are deeply talented photographers, no doubt about that. And they see themselves as photographers, but what they don't see themselves as a CEO. You want to have a robust business, I promise you, you're going to need to see yourself as a CEO or a successful business owner. Nothing's going to happen unless that starts. [00:45:10] Speaker A: That's so true. [00:45:12] Speaker B: So that identity piece is the beginning of the iconic framework. Right. We can call that mindset. You can call it whatever, but we need to see ourselves the way we want to be seen, first and foremost. And that's big work. [00:45:28] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think you've touched on something now that I think is really important for people to hear is how you need to set aside time to actually do this work to be mindful of. What am I actually thinking? What are my thoughts? What's holding me back from doing this task? Why am I not following through with what I wanted to and what I said? Because there's something in there. And I think most of us were so busy, there's so much going on that we don't take the time to just pause and figure out what's going on. [00:46:04] Speaker B: Yeah, I have nothing to add. That's exactly what's perfectly said. And the thing is, too, it's so interesting. I think about this a lot. We have a very strange metaphor, but we'll just play with it. So we have a basement in our house, and it's a very old house. Again, live in Toronto. Old for here. Let's just see. By north american standards, our house, at 120 years old, is considered an older house. So it was built 120 years ago. So as you go into the basement, there is a part of the wall that's a little bit soft to touch, which means that there's water, which terrifies me every time I would walk by and I would see this soft part on the foundation of my house, imagining it crumbling. So it was probably, I don't know, seven, eight years that I would walk by and not look and find myself in the middle of the night worried about it. We finally called them. I was sure that we're going to need to tear out the whole basement. And it was going to be a $50 to $60,000 job. I was convinced of it. We called somebody and it was taken care of in an afternoon and it was fine. So eight years of allowing myself to stress and fret, I think that that's what we often do, is we create so many different places where we imagine it's big and huge and scary. And sometimes it's really just. Is that all you have on your list? Oh, my gosh. I forgot that I have a phd. Yeah, just like that. So if we allow ourselves to actually get curious and not always buy into the story of why they haven't called back or how much this is going to cost and continue to have this tunnel vision. If we tap into that identity of the person who says, I'm a published author, I better figure out what this process looks like, I better get the best people to edit this, I better take action from that place. [00:48:11] Speaker A: Oh, I couldn't agree more. That's really brilliant. And I actually also want to ask you something that I usually start with, but then a couple of times now I have left it to the end and I want to know what your thoughts are on having a sustainable business. [00:48:30] Speaker B: So I think where I go with that immediately is I don't have a pat answer for it. Just so you know, it's just something that, how I see it, I see something sustainable as sort of long term and short term, where both are being cultivated, but they have different conditions, right? So I think about, who doesn't probably think about a garden of sorts. So I have my beautiful perennials that I know that are going to come back given the correct conditions for them and then the annuals that I will plant that are much more inspired. I want to say that a little bit differently because I don't mean that the perennials aren't inspired. I love them. Oh gosh, I can't wait for the peonies to come up. We're in deep winter forest. I'm just so excited about that. But this year I'm excited to plant different annuals. We actually just did have our winter planning session, but I have to make sure that those will not interfere with the conditions that I count on for the perennials. So I think it's the both and there's something really important and valuable I think, about that. Indigenous cultures have to show us about really understanding landscape, soil conditions, light, and I think we now talk about permaculture, but you really do need to look and be in observance of what's working and what's not working. And so I think creating time and space to get really honest about that and when it's time to pull something, when that rose bush just, it's hard to do it because maybe that was gifted by a neighbor who's now moved on, but you have to pull the things that are at the expense of other things around it. It's a very devotional process, I think, to tend to a sustainable business. So I would think about it from those two places. What are the long term pieces? And then what are the more short term, what are those fun offers that you're just inspired to do that? It's like, well, we're going to give something a go here, but really investing more devotionally to the perennial garden, that's what I think. [00:50:57] Speaker A: That's a great answer. And it's really important that to think of making sure that those short term things doesn't ruin it for the longer term, which I think we often forget. Yeah, it's so often about the short term wins and then we forget about the long term. That's what I see anyway. So I think that's an important reminder. [00:51:20] Speaker B: And then reminding ourselves, just remembering, because everything feels so acute. And so we're going for the short term because those feel like the big payoffs. But we do forget that there is life happening underneath. If we have planted the seeds and given them the right conditions and planted them in the right spot and actually looked at where the sun hits, even if the first year it doesn't bear fruit, we have to offer some patience. And I'm not sure if you have the same kind of mindset about this. We often talk about it taking five years to start to see a good return in a business. Does that make sense? Is that about the same for you? Yeah. Okay. And I think that we understand that and we think that we accept that that is truth. Great. That allows us a little bit of patience when we're building our business. We don't do the same when it comes to offers, though. No. Right. And I think we need to shift that a little bit. Things take time, especially if you've been doing this and now you're doing something. I'm gesturing with my hands. 90 degrees difference. Then people need a hot second to adjust to that. [00:52:31] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:52:32] Speaker B: They need to know that this is something new. So we have to create a little bit more space. Once again, plants use the correct conditions, make sure that there's fertilizer, make sure that you're watering it, but it takes a hot second for it to adjust to get the roots settled. So I think we need to offer ourselves a lot more patience. [00:52:53] Speaker A: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think it's hard sometimes when you think that everything's supposed to happen right away, when you look at all the other ones around you and you think that they've just made it happen overnight because you don't see all the work that they've put in. You don't know anything about what their support system is like. You don't know anything about them. I think a lot of people want to have that successful, profitable business right away. But as you say, it does take time and we need to think about things long term. That is so true. [00:53:32] Speaker B: Yeah. Once again, that's comparison. Right? We're constantly comparing our inner experience with somebody's outer experience. And here's the reality. My next door neighbor has much more of a green thumb than I do. So if we were to plant something, I am not going to lie to you. When I am inspired to take something, I'm just going to grab it, I'm going to jam it in the soil. That's the truth of it. My neighbor, oh, my gosh, she will take the same plant and she will prepare the roots. She'll get the bone meal. She will do everything just so meticulously and shockingly, we could plant the same plant on the. Basically the same soil conditions. Basically. And shockingly, her plant is going to do a little bit better than mine. That's because I have to be really honest with myself about how much energy I'm really putting into it. So often we say, well, I launched this program and it didn't do very well, or I launched this offer and didn't do very well. And look at that person. They launched this thing at the same time as I did. But you know that they did because they were talking about it. You, my friend, slipped it into the water. You slipped it into the water and then you got it slipped into the water results. And you want to make yourself, you want to compare yourself to the person who actually tended to the roots, created the right conditions. Right. So we have to be honest with ourselves about what's actually going on. [00:55:02] Speaker A: Yeah. Couldn't agree more. [00:55:04] Speaker B: Hey, and I'm so sorry, whoever feels called out by that, because I've done it, too. I've slipped things into the water. And why did that not? I thought that was going to be a game changer for everybody, so I just slipped it into the water while I got slipped it into the water results. Go figure. And of course, I say with a little lightness in my heart, because I also know that we have also had times where we have not just slipped it into the water, we've tended to the roots, we've created the right soil conditions, we've fertilized it, we've done all of the right things, and it still didn't go very well. Something else happened that we may or may not ever fully, fully know. But I do know that everything that I do has a much better chance of thriving if I actually tend to it. Properly, yes. [00:55:55] Speaker A: And we've talked so much about the different kinds of imposter complex. We've talked about what you might be struggling with and a few pointers on what might help to improve things. But if someone's listening and they're like, yes, this is me, I can really see that this is something I need to work on. What do you suggest that they do first? What's their first step? [00:56:22] Speaker B: Promise you the first step, and this is the reason I've started this way, is do that quiz to discern which is the iconic identity that is most helpful for you, because no matter what is going on with you, and it might not completely resonate, but then the invitation is to figure out who is it that you need to be to do the things that you want to say. Trust me, it's not different from who you are, but it's how you see yourself, what you call yourself, even internally, because if you are struggling with your business again in some way, shape or form, what does the CEO have to show you? What does the host have to show you? What does the maven have to show you? So I would really start with that quiz on my site. And if you yourself, you're already hearing, no, I know exactly what it is. I want to be the most referred photographer in my region. Great start. To see yourself in that way. How does that person move? What does that person say yes to? What does that person say no to? What does that person prioritize? It's going to change everything. You just see yourself differently, call yourself differently. It's going to invite this expanded sense and the imposter complex is going to show up. That's just how this works. So going back to reminding yourself all the times you've been here, right, looking at the critics who want to keep you out of action, looking at all that you have done, what it wants to, how do you doubt your capacity and what it wants to keep you alone and isolated? Who are the people around you in your network that can support you? [00:58:00] Speaker A: That's great. And also maybe just a reminder to not be so scared of the impostor complex. Just acknowledge that it's going to be there and just make sure that you have the support system that you need to deal with it so that you don't feel like you have to do everything on your own. [00:58:20] Speaker B: Yeah. And even the support system can feel scary, right? If you're already feeling a little isolated, you don't need all the people. You just need a couple of people who are helping to hold your vision with you. And yeah, it's only here because what you do matters. I'll just say very briefly, I don't have any imposter complex when it comes to my yoga practice or I'm learning to run. I don't feel like an imposter. It doesn't really matter. It's great. I'm learning to run. It's fun. But I have no need to be an expert in it. I have no need to be excellent at it. My parenting, my coaching, my teaching, my writing, those are the places it's going to show up because those are really meaningful to me. So when the imposter complex shows up, it's here to show you that you have beautiful values of integrity and proficiency and excellence and that you're doing something that really, really matters. That's a good thing. [00:59:13] Speaker A: Yeah, it is a good thing. What a perfect way to end. I would love for you to mention your website again with the quiz. And also if there are other places you want people to come find you once they listen to this. [00:59:26] Speaker B: Yeah. Wonderful. Well, I'd love to have them check out my site, Tanya Geisler.com, and then if they can, that quiz is right. So one of the first things you'll see tonygelo.com slash quiz. And that's going to help you discern which of the iconic identities is most likely yours. So you can play with that. I'd say I'm pretty active on Instagram and I also have a Facebook group called Iconic and then I'm also on LinkedIn, but that's been a little bit. I'm sort of a little hit and miss there. But probably my most fun work is on Instagram. I do reels there. I do sort of some tips that are a little helpful. Well, quite a lot helpful, actually, in overcoming imposter complex. Did you see me catch my diminishment there? [01:00:09] Speaker A: I did. [01:00:10] Speaker B: Thank you. It's an ongoing process. [01:00:14] Speaker A: It's an ongoing process, but that's great. I want to do the quiz. I'm sure I've done it before, but I want to do it again to see how I'm doing now. And yeah, just thank you so much for sharing all this with us. I feel like I have a lot to think about. Even though I've heard a lot of it before, I still feel like, yeah, this is something that we need to work on constantly. [01:00:38] Speaker B: Thank you. And I have to say that is one of the finest compliments I can receive when somebody hears me for the second, 3rd, 4th time when they get something new out of it because this is so layered. It is so layered and there's so much to it. So thank you for that acknowledgment as well. I really appreciate it. Thank you for the invitation. Delightful to be with you. [01:00:59] Speaker A: Thank you so much. And hopefully talk to you soon. [01:01:03] Speaker B: You bet. Thank you. Bye. [01:01:04] Speaker A: Thank you. Bye. You just listened to an episode of sustainable photography. Please share this episode with a photographer you care about. [01:01:14] Speaker B: You, our channel.