Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: I don't want people to feel that they're being left out. Still, I'm sure I sometimes make people feel like that through wording, through not being clear enough, being too vague, saying the wrong things. And I bet you do too.
Today I have Kelsey from honeybee weddings with me, and she is so passionate about inclusion. And we're going to talk about some things that we can all do to make sure that our clients know that we want to work with them.
You're listening to sustainable photography, a podcast all about business tips, inspiration, and confidence building. I'm Ingvild Kolnes, the host of this podcast, and after over a decade as a photographer, I now help talented photographers run sustainable businesses. And for full transparency, you should know that I'm a mentor with paid offers, and I will probably mention some of those in this episode.
Hi, Kelsey.
[00:01:01] Speaker B: Hello.
[00:01:02] Speaker A: I am so excited. We've been talking about this for ages, and finally, finally we're able to do this recording.
[00:01:11] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, honestly, it seems like it literally has been, like, since 2021, or at least 2022, since we've been like, hey, should we get on the podcast and talk about this super important thing? And now it's happening. So I'm just so excited.
[00:01:24] Speaker A: And I think that we could probably make episodes on a bunch of different topics. I think there's almost no limit, but we have now decided to start with this one topic of inclusion and making sure that we are treating people right. But before we dive into that, I want everyone to know who you are and what you do.
[00:01:45] Speaker B: Yeah. So, hi, I'm Kelsey. I identify with the she her pronouns. I'm a worldwide, a little bit photographer. I've got a multiple six figure business with my sweet husband. So hub and wifey photo video team, which has just been the light of my life. It's just been so fun.
[00:02:03] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:02:03] Speaker B: I also have a team of photographers, and they photograph elopements and weddings here in the US and in Montana. That's where we're based. And honestly, it all started with a handmedown camera and a dream. My grandpa gave me his old canon AEF film camera. It's like a block that weighs, like, 15 pounds. I mean, it's like this massive film camera. And I remember a trip we took to visit an aunt and uncle of mine, and I took this camera along, and it was just like, you're taking photos of just super random stuff, right? It's like the light shining through the pond and the ornate window in my aunt's house. And every time I did, I wrote down the settings of what I used in each shot in my notebook. And then when I got the film developed, I did not develop myself.
Can we just not.
I got it back, and then I wrote notes next to everything. So it was like it was underexposed or overexposed or not sharp or use a different aperture next time. So I basically just taught myself how to photograph on film. And it was just huge learning experience. So fun. Wow. Four years later, I photographed my first wedding. I was 19. Like, baby, right? A friend of mine paid me $400, and before that, I wanted to get more experience because I didn't want to ruin the best day of her life. So I got a job as a wedding photographer's assistant. And so that's kind of when I worked for several photographers over the series of a few years. And it was so fun. That was my summer job every summer after college. So I graduated with a sociology and psychology degree. And I guess that's when I first realized that Montana, my state, is white. Heteronormative state to the extreme right. I learned about the repression that minorities suffer through study, not through real life experience, but certainly through deep diving of what that looks like. And I learned about what we should be doing to make a difference. And after I graduated with social and psych degrees, I went to the art institute to pursue photography. That was my favorite. So three degrees and five years later, I'm out of school.
What are we going to do with our life? Oh, my God. So corporate life for me. I worked at a portrait photography company for a minute, and then I ran a team at an Internet retail site. So very corporate. A lot of pressure to tell you. I was burnt out and overwhelmed and just at a really difficult stage. I always joke about it. It's like the quarter life crisis. This was it. I was 25, like mid twenty s, and it was just terrible. So in 2016, I photographed a wedding, and it was the bride's brother, and I fell in love with him. Just met the love of my life. I quit my corporate job and I moved into photography full time. And it was just the best lifestyle move I've ever made. So I relocated and the business took off. I changed my now husband in photography and videography so we could work together. And honestly, after photographing traditional weddings for eight years, I photographed my first elopement. And it was like, mind blown. My life completely changed. I was like, this is the most intentional, focused, authentic way for people to get married. And I loved it. So long story short, we just grew after that. We ended up bringing on the team, and now we travel for elopements all around the globe. And this year kicks off my coaching career. So I'm hoping to build a sustainable business with all of these facets. And now that I've been in it for a minute, like 15 years, oh, God, I can help coach some photographers and business owners to bring that in. So that's kind of the long winded story of that. Perfect.
[00:06:04] Speaker A: No, that's great. It's great to get to know you better. And I know you kind of touched on sustainability in there, but if you would just say a little bit more about what you think of a sustainable business, like what it takes to have one for you, what that would look like, girl.
[00:06:22] Speaker B: I mean, like, you've proven this is a whole podcast, right? Sustainable. It could just be like a whole other episode and like a bazillion episodes. And you talk so beautifully about it. And that's what, like, loved following your podcast.
Listen, when you're a small business owner, you are the business. And there's no real way to separate the health of the owner from the health of the biz. So sustainability to me, means connecting the two. And I think Michelle Obama said it so well. I've got a quote from her. She said, we need to do a better job of putting ourselves higher on our own to do list.
I'm like, Michelle, yes, girl. And it's about these life changing habits and this daily power schedule that you can optimize your time to reform your business and your vision. And so for me, it looks like working less than 8 hours a day, active rest every day. So for me, this means taking a walk outside every day. It means maybe like, you love cooking, and so you just kind of like zone out and do your cooking, or maybe you're a mountain biker or just a runner or a swimmer or any of that sort of thing, like active rest. These psychological studies have shown that we really are more productive when we incorporate rest, daily rest, into our schedule. So that's really important to me. The morning is when we do our most high intensive, high energy work. So when we can prioritize our big projects in the morning, that's a whole thing that will really move the needle. I have a rise ritual every morning and what I call a girl by ritual at the end of the day. So having those two things, these rituals, signals to our brains the start and the end of the day. And I specifically want to emphasize the end because I think sweet little business owners struggle with putting their work away. They struggle with literally closing the door. Because they work at home. Right. Like, I'm in my home office. You're in your home office. It can be so hard to just separate those two. And the girl, by ritual is shutting the computer down, closing the door, walking the fuck away, and writing my gratitude journal. Right, like that. And then you're done, and you can have more intentional time with your family. So that's just a few things that I do.
[00:08:41] Speaker A: That sounds great. And you kind of said it as well. It's intentional. You have decided this is what I need, and then you're doing it. That's amazing. It's great.
[00:08:51] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, the power of habits, I don't know. There's so much that we want to accomplish, but if we don't have the systems and the habits behind those dreams, it's just not going to happen. And that's no fault to anyone. You can't just, poof, make it happen. So that's systems, baby, all the way.
[00:09:11] Speaker A: Yeah. So we're going to talk about inclusion, and it's such a big topic, and it's not necessarily easy to talk about, and we kind of touched on it before we started recording that. It's something where maybe you're afraid to say the wrong thing. So that's why no one's really saying anything, but we're going to give it a go.
What are your thoughts on inclusion?
[00:09:38] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think it's so important for photographers to be inclusive, and there can be so many benefits. But firstly, like you said, I do want to recognize that the topic can be intimidating to talk about. And I just want to give everyone listening the kindness and the grace to just try. Right? Like, even just being open minded, that can really take us so far. We all make mistakes, and I think as long as we're coming from the right place and really trying to educate ourselves in betterment, we will rise to that. So right off the top, I want to quantify my definition of what inclusive means to me. And again, these are just my thoughts. This is not the textbook of inclusivity. There are so many beautiful ways to love each other and be inclusive. So these are just my thoughts. So this means that inclusive to me means all love, bodies, abilities, races, genders, sexualities are celebrated and seen. And it's all about being human. Like all caps human beings, all of them love you, all humans, and just celebrating whatever that looks like. I think we can all agree that being inclusive is good for societal change and bringing in the kindness we want to see in the world. And overall, just making the world a better place. Right? Like, hands down, no questions, period. Hard stop.
I think deep down in my core that everyone should have the right to marry the person that they love and that they've chosen, regardless of their gender, sexual orientation, and race. And the biggest problem I see with the wedding industry is a white, heteronormative skew without the beautiful diversity of people of color and the queer and trans communities. And sadly, this reflects the real world. Right? Like, people in these marginalized communities often have less access to quality health care, they have less access to higher paying jobs, and they have harsher living conditions. They're already seeing the oppression that happens in this country. And so. Well, I guess I'm in the US.
I know you have listeners all over the world. I hope this is different for some of your beautiful people. But I think minorities live in every country, every place. And as a straight white girl, I'm an ally to all minorities. And this means that although I could never fully understand the pain, the struggle, and the repression that these communities are under on a daily basis, like, I'm here to support them in any way I can, I recently had an inquiry call come in, and she said her name was Hannah and her partner's name was, let's say, hillary. And I was, you know, so excited to talk to them, as I am with every couple. And her first question she asked me, basically upon getting on the call was like, I'm queer. Are you comfortable with?
[00:12:36] Speaker A: And that's so sad.
[00:12:37] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. So sad. No, that was my reaction as well. I was just like, maybe I skipped sad and just went straight to mad. I think that was more. Of course, I was so sweet to her, but in the back of my mind, I was just like, you should not have to ask this. Definitely, no, I need to be telling you. Vendors need to be telling them that they are loved and seen and appreciated, not the other way around.
It shouldn't be on our sweet little queer friends to make everyone else feel comfortable. That is just not what it's about. So that's basically what I said. I was, like, long winded is that you should not be asking me this. You should not have to do that. And a million times, yes, I love you so much.
So we got into this really beautiful conversation of, it's just the inequity. And the reason she's coming at me with that is because she's reached out to previous vendors, and the vendors have discriminated against her and said they will not work with her. And again, I'm just so much pain is.
Yeah. So I think being an inclusive business means providing a safe place for all people. And where I live in a rural state of Montana, being an inclusive business is even more important. There are businesses in my state that openly discriminate against these sweet minority communities. And I've been told that that's what they've said. And it benefits your clients being inclusive because as a wedding and a little photographer, this is the most important day of their lives.
Additionally, queer and trans couples might have expected and experienced pushback from their families, from their friends, from their loved ones, from vendors. I mean, it's so hard just being them and feeling safe in that, right? Like they might get dirty looks on the street when they hold hands together.
And that's just something that I wish happened less. And if there's anything I can do to fix that injustice, that's something we're totally going to do.
[00:14:55] Speaker A: Yeah. And hopefully that's something that we're going to get closer to with this conversation. Because I think a lot of what we do, especially as wedding vendors, is that we're not even intentionally, it's just something that we do where we're talking about things in a very traditional way, like we're mentioning the bride or even as family photographers. Mum, what can we do to make sure that we're including all people?
[00:15:32] Speaker B: Well, it's low hanging fruit, right? The gendered verbiage and the traditionalized family verbiage that we just kind of end up throwing out there.
We are doing our best. And that is something that firstly, we do need to recognize is like, we don't know what we don't know. And that's, I think, again, what this podcast is all about. And it might not be perfect, but to start off, I'm going to know Dr. Seuss like, people are people, no matter how small.
This means all the humans. So shapes, sizes, ethnic background, sexual orientation stems from an early knowing that people are different and mindfulness is practiced. It's not just something that we're born with. I think that's like a cultural thing that we need to know what that looks like. So I think to your point, what we can do. So I always include my pronouns in emails and on calls. This just kind of demonstrates like, hey, I'm aware of the fact that it's not binary, it's a spectrum, and I respect that from you. So Instagram, bios, website about me sections, that's something that we can take care of right away. Questionnaires, we all have questionnaires to get to know them the best we can and to serve them. And that's something that we can really dive into, like the relationship. Specifically, phrases like bride and groom, bridal party.
Take it out seriously right now, today, take time to audit your automated emails, contracts, website copy, blog posts. Change to more inclusive language like wedding party and partner and couple. That can just go such a long way into making everyone feel good.
[00:17:18] Speaker A: Yeah, that's so true. And it often doesn't necessarily take a lot. Just when I hear you say these things, it's making me think, like, I've been thinking about my contact form for the longest time, and I know that I haven't added pronouns in there, and it's just been on my mind and I haven't done it. And I think just kind of reminding each other that, let's just do it. Let's just get it done. Because it doesn't necessarily take a lot, but it means a lot.
[00:17:47] Speaker B: It does mean a lot. I mean, on your podcast, there was a place for me to be, like name and pronoun. You had that filled in on this whatever thing this is. Right?
[00:18:01] Speaker A: Good for me.
[00:18:02] Speaker B: Okay, I see you, girlfriend. I see you.
[00:18:04] Speaker A: Okay, maybe I have started then, but I'm sure that on some of my forms, I haven't actually done it because I know that I've been thinking, like, I need to actually get that done. So. Yeah. Again, just a reminder.
[00:18:18] Speaker B: Yeah. And again, it's super easy. Low hanging fruit, like apple s bride, wherever you find it, replace it. And even just assuming. I think, too, with the modern couple, it's not just one person who is planning this wedding, at least for me. So many of my couples do it jointly. And I think that is a beautiful thing to recognize in and of itself in some equity, that it's so intentional with both the people. It's not just this one person, stereotypically a female, who is planning a wedding. Right? Everybody's planning their wedding.
[00:18:55] Speaker A: And actually, something just came to me now, a few years ago, I saw, I believe. I'm not sure if I did a whole course, but I saw some video with Maddie Mae on posing, and she was like, we just kind of take it for granted that it's the guy lifting the girl, but you don't necessarily know that. So just being mindful of how you speak to people and in terms of posing people, putting people together, we maybe tend to do it in a very typical way where we're like, okay, so this is what I see everyone else do. So this is what I'm going to do, instead of checking in with our couples, how do you guys actually interact? What do you do together?
[00:19:40] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:19:41] Speaker A: It makes such a big difference.
[00:19:44] Speaker B: Yes. I mean, as photographers, it's our job to make couples feel seen, felt and understood, all while capturing all this genuine, beautiful emotion that's just like oozing out of them, right? And the first step for me is at the very top is like, we need to know their names and being cognizant of their pronouns. And while that does sound like, duh, right, I think some of us just kind of do the she immediately, right? Like, we do this heterosexual normative part. So, for instance, it's like using their names is best. Like when we're ever in doubt, we want to make sure people feel comfortable. It's like, give Rebecca some cuddles instead of give her some, like, using the name. And I think, like what you were saying with the man being lifting and the female being this sweet little taken care of thing.
Society has taught us from a very early age all about the gender roles. Like, thank you, Disney. And we all know the ones, right? Like these masculine and feminine gender roles where the male is strong and holds the smaller female close, right? Like, yep, those. And those are the ones that we want to throw right out the goddamn window right now. I actually talked to a queer couple recently, and they talked about how they get assigned gender roles just kind of as soon as they get in front of a camera. Like, they're just assigned gender roles based on what they're wearing. So if one of them is wearing a suit while one of them is wearing a dress, they've had photographers who assign the suit wearing person into this more masculine energy while they assign the person in the dress the more feminine role. And it just ends up putting them into this category that they just don't want to be in, right? They're just like, no. And again, I honestly believe this applies to all couples, not just our sweet queer couples. We all fluctuate between being masculine and feminine, and we all have a variety of identities that's important to embrace all parts. And at least when I'm posing people, it's like I want everybody to be held equally, right? I want both sides to give cuddles and receive cuddles equal no matter what that looks like. And it's so important to know their relationship. And I think that's, I mean, I'm sure all photographers do this, but we get on a console with them at some point, and that's when I ask them all the questions about their relationship, right? I'm just like, do we cuddle? Do we just make out like mad people? Do we just hold hands?
How do we show love, guys?
And so that's just kind of the time to really suss that out. I try to do that a little bit in advance. Right. But you can kind of talk about that as you go on the shoot as well. But I've just been for a while now, straying away from posing. It's not this rigid. Like, you go here with your arm around here and then being so stuck. It's more about prompts. So I might be like, walk hand in hand, bumping hips. Like, you're a little tipsy coming out of the bar.
They're laughing or whatever. And then I might be like, hey, hold each other close. Which, again, is vague, right? They can just decide who holds who. And that can be kind of sweet, too. Like, you're just in your natural habitat, and then it might be like, hey, whisper in each other's ear your favorite breakfast food, as sexy as possible or something. Right? And they're just like, avocado toast, like, whatever it is.
And they're, like, laughing, and it's usually super fun. So being super cognizant of not assigning any roles can be difficult. I mean, I think that's, again, if you are feeling like your first instinct is to go to these roles, you are not alone. This is society. You are not a bad person. This is every movie you've ever watched. This is every book you've probably ever read. I mean, it takes a lot of work to stray outside of that. So I hope there's no one out there being like, oh, my God, I'm a terrible person. No, you are inundated. It's like sitting in a bathtub. You're soaking in it. Then it takes a lot to get out of that bathtub.
[00:24:11] Speaker A: Yeah. But I do think what you do where you talk with people up front and you hear how their relationship is, I think in many ways that's part of the key, because then you'll know you don't have to kind of COVID yourself for all instances, because you'll know that couple and what they need and they want and who they are, and that's what matters, because everyone wants to be seen as they are and not just as anyone.
[00:24:42] Speaker B: Right? No, you're so right. I mean, and honestly, I've been in that situation with me and my sweet husband. Our love language is like cupcakes and humor. I mean, we're just like cute little weirdos who just laugh all the time. And the photographer we had, that was not their style. They were very moody and I felt it, right. I felt like we're just not quite getting there and it's no fault to anyone. Right?
I don't blame them at all. It just didn't feel good. It didn't feel like us. Right? And so very much from that day forward, it's been like, I just need to queue in differently, right? Because again, even for me, not everybody likes to just be weirdos and laugh all the time. Right? Not everybody is like that. So just accepting that, yeah.
[00:25:31] Speaker A: I've had the same experience where a photographer wanted me to act in a way, or us to act in a way that's just like, this is not us by any means. And it made me feel so uncomfortable that it wouldn't have mattered if the photos turned out to be the best ever because I would have just remembered the moment where I felt so awkward and like, no, just, no, I don't want to do that. So that also changed things for me where it's like, okay, I need to actually check in with my people who they are and be even clearer upfront with what kind of photographer I am. So I think, regardless of the reason, I think most of us can get better at that to just explain our process and how things work. Because you don't have to be the photographer for everyone. You don't have to photograph people who are really cuddly. If that's not your style, if you want to go more moody, you can do that. But just make sure that people understand that that's your style, that's what you do. You want that vibe in your photos.
[00:26:34] Speaker B: Yes. I love that you're setting those expectations.
And again, like we talked about, sustainable business practices, if you can manage expectations the entire way throughout your client journey, they're going to be happy the entire way. There's nothing you're going to do short of really messing up. Right. But if we can do that, then we've done it. Right. And I think that's too, something you said struck with me that you don't have to be for everyone. I would encourage every photographer you are not for everyone. And that is okay. Right? We have our couples, and they're honeybee couples. They're cute, they're weird. They like to just romp around and explore and cuddle and that's what they like to do. Not everybody. And that's fine. You're not going to be for everybody. And that's fine. I think a big thing that I've implemented in the past, probably like six months, is on the consult call before they even book. I actually go into a gallery, like a full gallery, while I'm on the phone with them on the zoom, I'm like, yes, this is what it looks like. And this is kind of like what you can expect. And this is maybe what I might have said to them to make this happen. And it's very abundantly clear if you don't want to have some candid moments, if we're kind of more model than candid, we might want to go a different direction because I will probably be wanting to break every chin set this way. And that whole modely thing, that can sometimes happen, I'm going to want to break that the entire day, and it's probably going to be no fun for anybody. I just want natural moments.
[00:28:12] Speaker A: Yeah, but it's a great idea to show them what to expect as well.
[00:28:17] Speaker B: Yeah, because sometimes they just don't really know what it looks like when they say, I want a candid, emotional day.
They've just been curated. I mean, I think that's the other thing that we've all been washed with the algorithm. And what ends up happening is that it's the same stuff that keeps getting served up. And it's, again, no fault to anybody. But that's just what our couples, our potential couples are getting. They're only getting what the Internet wants to serve to them, which is a big disservice for all of the sweet photographer artists out there who are different. Each of our styles are so different. But our couples would never know that because they're only served one specific view of what that looks like. Education is so important.
[00:29:11] Speaker A: How's your website doing? Do you even know? Do you check the stats? Do you follow the analytics?
If you know that it's a place where you're getting a lot of clients from, then you're probably doing good. But if you're not getting a lot of clients from your website, if you're not really being found, then you're probably missing out. Because I would go as far as to say your website could be a gold mine. Your website could be bringing you clients on autopilot, through being found on Google in search results to actually being a place that regardless of where someone have found you, they are led to fill in your contact form.
Not to mention, it's clear on your website who you want to work with, and maybe not, in so many words, who you don't want to work with. If this sounds like something that you want to go to ingvillecohness.com website to check out your options for having a website made for you. That's englisholnas.com website.
You mentioned before that adding pronoun questions in your questionnaire and adding your own pronouns, for example, to your bio and stuff, that could be a good start. Do you have any other ideas of what we might be able to do to show that we're accepting of all people?
[00:30:44] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think the thing that we can all be doing, and obviously, me included. Right, everybody. We can be learning more, photographing more diverse couples. I've recently reached out to my local LGBTQ center here in Montana. I'm just so excited. We have one of those that is, like, super new, and so I'm just like, yes. So I've recently reached out to them, and I'm looking forward to volunteering my photography services because giving back is, at least for me, the most important form of advocacy and inclusivity that we can ever get to. So I've also, with every package of mine, like, 5% is gifted to a nonprofit of a list. So it's like National Park Foundation, NAACP, and the Clean Air act. My couple can decide which one of you know, I think that's one of the coolest things as far as how the business can make a know. Like, my mama taught me to leave the world better than I found it, and I've just carried that with me from childhood, and now it's one of our brand promises. So from a business standpoint, we can really raise the bar and not just socially make the difference. Kind of like a soft science, right? But we can actually like, hey, with me and my couples, we've been able to raise X amount of dollars this year to the NAACP that I am super passionate about. And Mahatma Gandhi said it best, baby, be the change you want to see. And as business owners, we have so much empowerment and just, like, so many beautiful ways to do that. So there's that mini sessions with your BIPOC and LGBTQ community, and then I would offer to donate all the money earned to your local nonprofit. You can put your messages out on your social media pages, like, be an advocate and let your social media be a platform to push those agendas. And most importantly, build the relationships right. With all the humans, the better you can serve your clients and get to know them, and the better their story will translate into your art and the more that people will be able to see your work is. So genuine and just like that, you connect to your people, and the more they'll be like, yeah, this is something I want in my life.
[00:33:05] Speaker A: I love that.
[00:33:06] Speaker B: All of it.
[00:33:07] Speaker A: This is great. Yeah, it's great how you don't just talk about it, you're really living it and doing it, which is so important. Much more important than just talking about it, because we need to see other people doing it and actually wanting to make a difference in order to get better ourselves. And we can all be better. I'm sure of that.
And as business owners, I feel like we also have an extra responsibility. We have more opportunities to do better and make better choices. And one thing we can also do is probably choose better who to collaborate with to make sure that we are choosing partners or people that we want to do projects with that have the same values that we do.
[00:33:59] Speaker B: Agreed? Yeah. I mean, I mentioned that story early at the top of the episode about that sweet couple who reached out to me, and they're like, are you comfortable photographing a queer couple? And that was one where.
That was the aha moment where I was like, I need to, because I do. I have a vendor list, right? We all have one. I called everyone on that vendor list, every category, and I was like, do you work with queer couples? And it was like, yes or no? I had people kind of, like, skirting around the issue. I'm like, no. Yes or no, right? I want to be very.
I know we're doing like, whoa, Kelsey, why are we doing this? But I was very clear, because I don't want my sweet queer couples to have the experience of reaching out to yet another vendor and them being like, no, I can't. I mean, it just breaks my heart into teeny, tiny pieces. So if there's anything I can do to protect them and bulldog for them, just one less thing that they have to do. Yeah, I'm going to do that for sure. So anyway, I curated the vendor list, and then I sent it along.
[00:35:02] Speaker A: That's good. But I am curious, though. Is it legal to do that? Because it's not here. You would not be allowed to exclude anyone due to their sexuality. So I just have to ask if it's no.
[00:35:15] Speaker B: I mean, if she wanted to pursue that legally, she could, but, I mean, when you think about the financial behind the legal system, right? It's like, so she would be bringing a civil suit, which costs money to hire an attorney, and then how easy is it for the vendor to be like, oh, no, I was just unavailable that day. I mean, when you think about the practicalities.
[00:35:37] Speaker A: Couldn't they report it to the police and to the newspapers?
[00:35:41] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. But again, it's like that vendor could easily just be, like, I was just unavailable. It wasn't because of that, which is terrible. Right? Yeah. I mean, don't get me started on the legal system being a sociology major.
Legal system, right. Yeah, it's awful. And just like, the level of the lack of integrity for me, right. It's like the US, I think, is a social climate all in of itself that I wouldn't wish on any other country.
[00:36:14] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:36:15] Speaker B: It's a really painful place to be for minorities and for a first world country, in my mind, that is unacceptable.
I think that's why I'm so passionate about, like, I can only do so much here as a business. But like you said, and something, to quote Spider man, with great power comes great responsibility. Right? So we have that power more so to throw money at the causes that can really move the needle. Right. We can do our part, and I encourage everyone, everyone to do their part. No voice is too small, but we can really push some of our profits and our donations and to a place that it will really make a difference.
[00:37:01] Speaker A: Yeah, so true.
Another thing that I thought we could talk about is skin tones and how we want to make sure that people are represented and that we're treating their images in a good way.
[00:37:19] Speaker B: I mean, again, like, treating the images with integrity too. Right.
I want us to think about the visual, right? Like, we walk into the makeup counter and we see all of the colors. That is like a cover up, right? Is like full, you know, full face makeup, which we can even just for a second, think about all the colors, the color tones that correspond with these makeup colors. Some are more green hued, some are more magenta, some are yellow, some are more blue. I mean, it's a lot, right? That's a lot. And obviously, that's not even close to coming to accounting for all of our sweet, colorful tones all around the world.
How could we? How could we even. But for me, exposure is key, right? We need to expose for all the skin tones correctly. And the undertone of someone's skin, I think, is just super important. And that is where color theory really comes in. Right? So, like, our sweet little asian population, for instance, might have a more green olive undertone versus someone, like, with a german background. Hello. That's like, you're magenta. It's like pink, pink, pink. And that is like, your entire face. Right. We need to be careful when we're posing, setting these people. So, for instance, like, green trees, we put them under the shade and it reflects, and it's, like, super green. So being cognizant of the white balance when you're photographing, I think, is something we should be doing in camera as much as possible. And the best thing we can do is just practice. Right? Practice with all forms of skin, indoors, outdoors, look for their undertones. And I think something that we can bring with us is a gray card. Right. We can shoot that gray card before you do anything in that specific lighting scenario. And then you're going to white balance to that. And even in post, that's something that can really help you, right.
If we don't have time. So for weddings, white balance can be tough to get because we're just like, we're going right now, we're doing all this stuff. So something like a gray card or even a white piece of office paper can just sometimes be enough. Just, like, put in front.
And when editing, too, I think luminescence slider, that can be a good one. And even just knowing that we have our presets, right, every photographer has their presets, and we have this internal thing of what the final deliverable looks like, but just kind of knowing that different skin tones will soak in light differently. And so your preset may not be like a cut and dry preset for everybody. And again, that's kind of the makeup example. There's no preset, like, precut makeup for everyone. There is no cut preset for everyone. So just being cognizant of that.
[00:40:13] Speaker A: Yeah, that's really good advice. It's good to both think about when you're out there shooting as well as what you can do when you're back home editing, because it does make a huge difference if you do it right. And you do want your couples or clients of any kind to feel like they see themselves.
[00:40:37] Speaker B: Yeah. And I've actually had conversations with couples. They've come to me and they're like, hey, photos look kind of weird for me sometimes because I end up looking really green, and I'm like, aye, all capitan. I will take that into account and really look for that. So when you get feedback like that, really look at it, and I think giving you the permission to just slow down, especially, like, I'm talking to sweet little wedding photographers right now. Well, and family, too. Right? You just kind of feel like you have to. You just have to do it all the time, and we have to do it fast and all this stuff. You are an art and they are paying you for that, however long that takes. So if you need to be like, hey, I'm going to take a second to assess my lighting situation. And here, stand here for just a second. Now move your head here to the left. Move your head to the right. Move it up and down. Okay, now come over here. Move it up and down so you can kind of look at the lighting and what it's doing to their face. That's something I learned in the portrait studio I worked at early on after graduating school. It's okay to just look around, make them kind of move and find the place that is most flattering for them. And taking the time to do that is okay. Your clients trust you. You've come at it from such a point. You've served them so well thus far. They trust you to do whatever you need to do. So, yeah, feel free to take your time. That's when the good art happens, in my opinion.
[00:41:58] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think it's a really good reminder that you don't have to rush that. You shouldn't rush that. It's okay to slow down and it's better to deliver something that's great rather than a ton of stuff that's just okay or even less than okay.
[00:42:15] Speaker B: Yeah. Right. I mean, curate it tight.
You're only as good as your worst image, so curate your galleries tight. Make sure it's something that your couples love. And, yeah, they're never going to be upset for, like, oh, I didn't get a million pictures because you didn't give me all the ones that my eyes were closed. I don't think anybody's going to be super upset about that.
[00:42:37] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't think so either.
[00:42:39] Speaker B: No.
[00:42:40] Speaker A: Moving forward, what can we do to stay educated, to stay up to date, to know what's going on?
[00:42:51] Speaker B: I think what I try not to do is make it their responsibility to educate me.
Our sweet lgbtq couples, our bipoc couples. I'm not going to come to them and be like, tell me what I should be doing. Right. I don't want to put any more burden on them than I have to on the whole thing. If you have friends in these communities who are open and willing to chat with you. Yes. Right. 100%. I always just try to come to the table with something to offer. Right. So there's a lot of cool Instagram accounts out there. I'll just name a few so we can put them in the show notes.
[00:43:31] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:43:32] Speaker B: Blair Imani, she's great. She does this segment called smarter in seconds and she does these reels that she just lists off the like. It's kind of like a role play, which I really appreciate. So she'll have, like, two sides of the argument. Anyway, so Blair Imani, she's great. Black lives matter. Of course. They always have a really great, helpful content. Pink manoray, which is actually Shyler Baylor. I don't know if I'm pronouncing his last name right. Baylor, check your privilege. And Ebony Janice on Instagram. They are just great places. Just know some beautiful, healthy things on your feet occasionally, and then just reading books from minority authors. I think that can just go so far. And then again, if you have a team, other photographers under them, like me, my training guide, there's actually a section in there about how we talk to people and make them feel inclusive. So how we use pronouns, how we make sure that we're reacting with them in such a way on the photo shoot, on the day of the shoot, that they're comfortable, we're not overly posing them. We're talking about masculine, feminine. We're kind of giving them some guidance on that. They are representing you. And if one of your core values is to make your sweet couples feel seen and heard, then that's really important. Yeah, I think those are great ways.
[00:44:52] Speaker A: Yeah. And I hope that after listening to this, that people will start thinking, okay, I need to do better. I need to try harder. Where do you suggest that they start in order to be more inclusive and at the same time, don't lose track of that. Sustainable.
[00:45:12] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you're never going to hear me again say hop on Instagram for anything. Right. I think Instagram, as far as the sustainability piece, can be, just real toxic. Yeah. If you hit those right accounts, I think that is really great. And just being. I think the first step, really, is to just take a look at it, even societally. I mean, that's where it really came through for me, is like, when you can see the inequities in society, that is the biggest piece as to why it's permeating into weddings and elopement and photography. So just being able to just be open to that and just be thinking more about it, talk to your friends about it, and just cultivate this dialogue that we're.
It's hard to talk about. I 100% recognize that. But just being able to come at it from a place of betterment and really rising, you can't go wrong.
If you're coming from a place from kindness, random acts of kindness everywhere, that's what we can be doing.
I think when we're talking about recommendations to build a sustainable business, it might be one of the least sexy topics to everybody else. But for me it's all about systems. I put a lot of work into reforming these automations and habits are big ones for me. And just I want to know my clients are taken care of without me having to check in on every little step throughout the journey. And I do this for a lot of my friends six figure businesses too. Like, I've gone into their business and audited their systems, so then they're all set to go, they're organized and their couples are taken care of. I work with a lot of photographers about how to create sustainable habits that lead to them having success in their business as well. Something super specific and maybe this is like too specific, but I think something that sustainability wise, text and emails are not the boss of you.
Text and emails, they end up taking so much time and energy. I feel like people feel it right in their chest, like right there. Like they get angsty and they feel it and it's like right there.
The text and emails are not the boss of you and neither are the people who are doing the emailing and the texting. So listen, I recognize the culture we live in in this immediate response. And your emails and your work is always on your phone and always literally like 2ft away. And I give you permission to tell it to fuck off. Because here's the thing, you literally could spend all of your day in emails and text. Because the secret is, once you text an email, you're going to get a response, which means even more texting and more emailing. It's this like vicious cycle. And text emails are not going to make your business better, right? They're not going to make your clients happier, contrary to popular belief, right, you need to leave those emails to their own devices for a couple of days each week and create, right, create that Mona Lisa system that you're looking for. Like, create the masterpieces that your business needs to move forward. This could be a new workflow and like, super sexy, am I right? Workflow.
I agree.
[00:48:27] Speaker A: I'm on your side with this.
[00:48:29] Speaker B: Yeah, girl. Yeah. It could be practicing those new posing, those new pose ideas. It could mean taking a walk. Whatever it is. You should be checking your inbox like three times a week, Max. And I actually put that at the bottom of my sign off at the bottom of every email. It's like, hey, people love you, but I check emails Monday, Wednesday, Friday, goodbye.
[00:48:55] Speaker A: That's amazing.
[00:48:56] Speaker B: I love that. Yeah. Well, I mean, you said about setting expectations.
That is one big way that you can manage it. It's like, hey, I love you, but I don't check emails every day. And that's okay.
[00:49:09] Speaker A: And not just that, it also comes back to that whole thing of your values, what you believe in, and then you're living it. You're not just talking about it. So your clients would be completely happy with that because that's what you're all about. Brilliant reminder for everyone.
[00:49:26] Speaker B: Yeah. I think another big thing, too, that can lead to so much problems with sustainable business, or lack of, is that we set goals, right? So you and me are talking at the top of the year whenever this is airing, but, like January, everybody is thinking about goals. They're thinking about what they want to do for the year. And it ends up, there's so many problems with goals. I have huge issues with goals because when we set them, it's like we're chasing up this mountain and we're not really happy until we get to that goal. And then it lasts for a second, like, oh, yeah, I did it, and then what? And I think that's why we see so many goals dropping off. By the time like March, April rolls around. We're just like, for what, man? For what? So I think starting with the vision of who you want to become, it's the system I've coined and created. It's called the summit vision system. And you'll see that vision and system are in the same sentence. And the reason why that is, is because we need to do goals differently. We need to set who we want to become, what we want to do, and then really set up systems for that. Not necessarily like the checkboxes, but like, hey, if I want to become a multiple, like a six figure business, I want to be a CEO with a six figure business. Systems wise, what does that look like? It probably means getting up earlier in the morning, doing my big work in the morning, taking a break for a walk, getting the emails done in the afternoon, get the consult calls in the afternoon, when psychologically my energy is lower.
That's the system for the vision that you want to become. And you can chart that out. I mean, I've got checkboxes for me for like quarterly. So for me, it starts with the five year, the five year vision, the summit. What do I want to be at the top of that mountain? So instead of working small and then up, I work from the big, hairy, audacious goal and break it down from there. So then you're able to create the systems to make that happen.
[00:51:38] Speaker A: I love that. I think that's a great way to do things, to think about the long term perspective and not just the here and now.
[00:51:45] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, you end up kind of casting the vote for the person you want to become every day, and that will always make you feel good. No matter whether you get to the long term or not, you're casting the vote every day. You're just. Little things add up to really big changes, and that can be super fun. I mean, that's something I love doing with my sweet friends, is I'll be like, let me chart your summit vision system. What is it?
I've got, like, quarters of, like, this is quarter one q two q three. I mean, it's just a whole thing, and I nerd out about it, and it's a problem.
I love it. I think it's so fun. It's so fun.
[00:52:30] Speaker A: It sounds like fun. I do love goal setting, but I do have an approach that's closer to yours where I think about it, and a long term perspective and what you actually want from your life. And it's not just like an empty goal. So I think it sounds different, but it's still kind of similar, and I love it. To me, it's just really great to have some kind of almost driving force, like something there that's taking you in the direction where you want to be.
[00:52:56] Speaker B: Right. Well, I mean, it's something you kind of said, too, is like, it's more than just the business. It's your life.
[00:53:02] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:53:03] Speaker B: So something that's in my five year summit vision is that I want to play pickleball two times a week, and I'm going to work 4 hours a day.
That's it. I want to have a director of operations that will help take on the things that I just, quite frankly, I don't want to do. And that's part of it.
[00:53:23] Speaker A: I think that sounds really like a great goal or a great vision. Sorry. A great vision.
[00:53:30] Speaker B: Yeah. There you go.
We're changing all the language today. Okay. We're just rewriting all our stuff. Yeah, but it's great.
[00:53:41] Speaker A: And it's been great talking with you finally after all this time. And I hope that this has made people think a little bit more about how they talk and what they talk about in which way, and I'm sure that they want to go follow you. So where can they find you and keep learning?
[00:54:01] Speaker B: We are on the Instagrams at be, so we're there. Also have a website you can check that out. I'm going to be launching boss up. It's my four week group coaching course and it's all about habits and creating your power. Daily schedule, stepping into a CEO mindset and then the summit vision system at the end. So stay tuned for that.
[00:54:28] Speaker A: Sounds great.
[00:54:29] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, girl. I am so excited. I think I'm just like, everyone needs this.
And that's why I'm just so excited, because I'm so passionate about getting these super talented, amazing human beings the sustainable lifestyle that they deserve and that they might be in the thick of it right now, but if we just give them some tools and some systems to carve that out a little better, then sky's the limit. They can just go nuts. So I'm super excited about that.
I'm hoping to launch that later in the year, so stay tuned. And then we also have something I'm super excited about. It's a one on one coaching. So it's a three part, three on one coaching. It's called adventure with us. So the first part is, I audit your business and we kind of look at your website and your images and your social media presence and we kind of carve out where we want to go from where you are. So we have people who want to transition from traditional weddings to elopements. So we do that on step one. Step two, you come on an elopement with us.
That I think is the coolest thing. I'm just like, come along, guys. So they get to photograph it, they can use the images. It's just a really quick way to just get your portfolio up and going. And then the second part, we do what I call the pricing pool party.
So we basically design packages for them. And by we, I mean me. So I talk to my sweet people about what things they love offering, things they don't love offering, how we can differentiate them. And then I come up with three to four packages of what that should look like. That's part of branding. The branding boost is in there, too. Just a lot of super fun stuff because I just think people are so wonderful and talented and just building the systems for them is really fun for me. So that's kind of what we're working on over here.
[00:56:27] Speaker A: Sounds great. Sounds like you've got a lot going on.
[00:56:30] Speaker B: Yeah, all the good things.
A lot. But, I mean, I was just going.
[00:56:36] Speaker A: To say you're off tomorrow for another adventure.
[00:56:40] Speaker B: Yeah. So heading to Amsterdam and Barcelona starting tomorrow. Yeah. So we've got.
I started. This is a moment of vulnerability for so, like, give me some grace. I, because I wanted to create workshops for photographers. Like, hey, why don't we go somewhere fun? I'll do like how to get your destination weddings workshop, like a coaching thing. And then we go photograph some awesome couples. No one signed up for that, so my first time, no one signed up and I'm just know. It's okay. I'm not deterred. It's only a matter of know. But yeah. So that's happening in Amsterdam. I'm going to be giving the presentation so we'll be able to see it as a workshop, as like an online webinar, if people want to do that. And then Annie and Gracie, my sweet little couple, will be romping around in Amsterdam. And then, yeah, Barcelona, we've got an elopement. They're just taking the plunge. They've got one day out of their cruise and so they're eloping. I was like, you guys are awesome. My couples are so cool.
[00:57:42] Speaker A: Fun. Okay, that sounds great.
[00:57:44] Speaker B: So fun.
[00:57:45] Speaker A: I'm so glad that you found the time to talk with me and to just cover this important topic. That's been great.
[00:57:54] Speaker B: It's really been a joy. Thank you so much for having me. Anytime you just call, we'll figure it out. We'll figure out a time because it's just been so fun.
[00:58:02] Speaker A: Oh, great. Yeah.
[00:58:04] Speaker B: So fun. Thank you for all you do.
[00:58:06] Speaker A: Oh, thank you. You're definitely welcome back.
[00:58:09] Speaker B: Yay.
Yeah. No, I love your podcast. Listen to it all the time. I just think you do so much for our community. So thank you.
[00:58:17] Speaker A: Yeah, thank you.
[00:58:18] Speaker B: We need to hear you.
[00:58:20] Speaker A: We do.
[00:58:21] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:58:24] Speaker A: You just listened to an episode of sustainable photography. Please share this episode with a photographer you care about.
