Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: This episode is with my friend Mel Worthington. She has been in my program, the sustainable photography program, and we also made her a brand new website complete with new branding and everything. And now it is really, really standing out one of a kind. And it's been so much fun working with Mel. She's got such a unique perspective and you should go follow her on instagram to see what she brings to the world. Find her at Malzw photog. Mel Z. Worthington, you're listening to sustainable photography, a podcast all about business tips, inspiration and confidence building. I'm Ingwil Colness, the host of this podcast, and after over a decade as a photographer, I now help talented photographers run sustainable businesses. And for full transparency, you should know that I'm a mentor with paid offers and I will probably mention some of those in this episode with me today. I have my friend Mel Worthington and she is a documentary photographer in home photographer. She has her own unique thing and we know each other quite well, having worked together for over a year. And I want you to get to know her as well. So before I say anything more, Mel, can you introduce yourself?
[00:01:28] Speaker B: Sure. I'm Mel Worthington. I am a family and newborn photographer in the Washington, DC area in America and I am definitely not the typical family photographer choice here.
I keep families in the context of their lived life and I keep childhood in the frame where I live. It's much more common to do mini sessions where children are sort of dressed as mini mes and like adult like, clothing and bows in their hair, and the toys have to stay in the car and the behavior has to be, you know, smile at the camera, be good. Like, all the stuff that I think is great about raising kids gets lost in it. And it's very aspirational in some ways. Like, here's how we should be. Yeah, here's who I wish we were. So I'm trying to offer something different that can document the story of childhood over time.
[00:02:31] Speaker A: I love that. And we're going to get to that. But that's what we're going to talk about as well today. Like your journey towards embracing that about you, your brand, how it really stands out. But before that, because this is the sustainable photography podcast, I do want to ask you what you think is a sustainable business.
[00:02:53] Speaker B: So the big thing is not getting burnt out.
I've been a photographer for over 20 years. There was a time where I was doing event work with my husband and it was that rigorous thing where you're losing all your weekends in your personal time.
You are always hustling, always trying to get the next job, always trying to get the next opportunity, and just not really living your life very well. So I think sustainable is you have to be profitable, but you also have to be living your own life. And your business needs to fit into your values. You need to live what's important to you in order to do the work that's important to you.
[00:03:44] Speaker A: I definitely agree. And I think in your brand, that is something that you've incorporated so well, because it's not just about thinking. Okay, so who's my ideal client? Because I don't think they can be your ideal client without you being comfortable around them, without enjoying working with them. And you have to have something in common. It's most likely the values. And I feel that is definitely true for you.
[00:04:14] Speaker B: Yeah, I think I'm learning that it's the relationship and the process, maybe. I don't know if it's more valuable than the photos, but it's just as important.
And I think what I'm trying to really do is build better relationships with my clients.
[00:04:35] Speaker A: That makes a lot of sense. And I really understand what you're saying, because when I do elopement photography, the kinds of clients that I work with, it's not really about the photos, it's not about like the end result. It's about the experience that they have on the day, but also everything leading up to it. Because if it was a complete nightmare and they were really stressed and didn't understand anything, they probably wouldn't have a great day. They probably wouldn't have a great experience working with me. So it wouldn't really matter if they had the best photos in the world. If they're like, yeah, that was a pretty shitty day. I mean, they wouldn't enjoy it.
[00:05:17] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, we have a lot in common in that regard because not only that, it's this big moment in people's lives. So for you, that's a wedding, maybe. For me, it's the welcoming a newborn home and you're inviting someone in to record. But it's hard to not be part of that in some way. It's funny, I've had a documentary session done with my family and I remember the photographers very well. I don't remember their presence or so much like I do remember the moments with my family. And I remember being like, oh, I'm so glad we're getting this because this is really important to me. And I think there has to be like this, this foundation of trust for it to be that way for the couple to experience their actual elopement and wedding, I mean, their version of their wedding, because it's supposed to be for them. If they're eloping. This is about us. This isn't about everybody else. And similarly, when someone has a baby, this is about us in this sort of explosive universe that just formed. And so, yeah, the trust piece is huge.
[00:06:27] Speaker A: It is. And it is when it comes to branding as well, which, again, I want to talk with you about everything that has happened with you in the last few months. But first, when it comes to your branding, what can you say about your branding and youre, I don't know, presence, in a way, a year or two years ago, how would you explain your brand the way that you think it was perceived by others?
[00:06:58] Speaker B: Oh, that's such a good question.
I was intuitive.
I would tell stories. I would write things, but I wasn't really framing, if that makes any sense. Like, I didn't have.
I didn't feel like I had the authority. Maybe that's been. The interesting thing about developing this brand is I think suddenly it gave me permission to be who I was. Yeah, the colors being very vibrant gives me permission to be colorful. The kind of having both a very hard font and a very soft scripty font lets me embrace both of those parts of myself. But I think before, or I was just.
I would. Oh, I know what it was. I was just trying to be everything to everybody, you know, so common. And it is, like, in my heart, inclusion is so important.
But if you're running a different kind of business, you're not really helping somebody if they're not really your client. Like, you might be inviting them in the. But it might not be their right place. It's not as benevolent as it sounds, maybe so I think that I was being very overly inclusive, trying to please everyone, trying to be very careful with the rules, like, don't curse, don't.
I don't know. I was playing by too many rules, and as a result, I really wasn't reaching anyone specifically at all.
[00:08:30] Speaker A: What you're explaining now, it is so common. I hear this all the time. Like, I can work with anyone. I like everyone. There's nothing that I can't do. And while that is true, the people that would need you the most, that would benefit from your work the most, that you would feel most comfortable with, that would feel most comfortable with you, they won't know if you're trying to kind of be the right fit for everyone because you're going to be to nonspecific. And that's not really gonna attract anyone. So you're gonna stay hidden and invisible.
[00:09:09] Speaker B: Exactly. But it is a little painful, particularly when you're someone who values, like, I love the difference in all of my friends. So you don't want to leave someone out.
[00:09:21] Speaker A: I know.
[00:09:22] Speaker B: You know, like, it took me a long time to, like, work through that. Like, if I can't do that thing someone wants, I know people at this point who can do that thing so much better than me. It's more benevolent for me to say, hey, I know what you're looking for, and I know somebody, like, at this point, I am. I am referring out about half the people who inquire. And that is weird, but it feels better.
[00:09:49] Speaker A: Exactly. And that's a feeling that I've had as well. I've had inquiries wherever someone has reached out, and I'm like, I'm available, but it's like, I am not the person for you. You need to reach out to this person because they're made for you. I understand how that to some people can feel very counterintuitive in a way. You're finally getting inquiries and then you're passing them away. But it completely makes sense when you know what you're supposed to do and when you want what's best for your client.
[00:10:23] Speaker B: Yes, but that's exactly it, though, is like, it feels counterintuitive and it is that thing, like, well, the phone is ringing and why am I not answering? Like, what? Who do I think I am? Do you know what I mean? Like, who is this girl? Are we allowed to curse here? I forgot, of course.
[00:10:43] Speaker A: Go for it.
[00:10:44] Speaker B: Cause I did edit myself there a little bit. But you, do you feel like, who am I to. So who do I think I am?
[00:10:50] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's kind of the secret power, almost, of branding. It's you being able to guide people away or to you without having to have that initial meeting first and talk with them. Because if someone comes across your branding and they're like, yeah, probably not, then you're saving time if you don't have to mute with them.
[00:11:14] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:14] Speaker A: Because you're showing what you really want to do and who you are. And I think if you're in a state of like, I just need something, anything to happen, please let me just get clients.
It's going to be really hard for you, but if you're feeling more comfortable and trusting, then you can do it in an easier way. It's going to be easier for you because you'll know, like, different clients are going to come my way. I know it's going to be okay.
[00:11:43] Speaker B: Yeah, that's the faith piece that I'm trying to work on is just the knowledge that maybe I haven't hit the people yet, but I will. Do you know what I mean?
[00:11:52] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:11:53] Speaker B: And it's funny because I haven't been able to eliminate that screening phone call yet. But I'm also finding it's not really helping because it always starts with like, hey, who's in the family? Who's going to be in the shoot? I'm learning a little bit about you, and then I want to learn about what's important to you.
Photos are important to you. Like, describe your ideal photo or why you're doing it or something like that. And everybody wants to come across as, oh, yeah, I just totally want imperfect stuff. I just love my family the way we are. Like, who wants to say I'm kind of high maintenance. I kind of have some expectations of perfection.
So I'm finding people are still making it in the door, but I do. I think it just takes time, and I think I need to be more clear, you know, as I'm going forward, I'm getting a little more bold with what I'm saying. Yeah, I think I used to didn't want to upset people, and now I'm like, it's not upsetting. Or if it is, it's an invitation for them to find the person they jive with. Like, to know it's not me. Like, that's knowing it's not me is as important as knowing it is me.
[00:13:05] Speaker A: But how would you. Cause now you've gone through a whole process of changing up your brand and making it become more you. How would you explain or describe it now to someone who hasn't seen your website or your social media yet?
[00:13:21] Speaker B: Hmm.
This is where I'm supposed to have a really good elevator pin. I do. So let's say I'm meeting somebody, right? Like, I just randomly, they'll ask me what I do, and I'm like, well, I'm a newborn and family photographer, but I'm not your typical photographer. That's the first thing I say. I'm not your typical photographer. And usually that sort of gets a little bit like, well, what are you? And then I feel like I answer it a little bit differently every time. And it depends on the person in the context, but it is some version of what I said in the intro, which is I'm trying to keep families in their lived life. So photographing you at home or going on something you normally do together. Like, I'm trying to describe your life.
[00:14:04] Speaker A: I love that.
[00:14:04] Speaker B: And reflect your life and your love back to you.
[00:14:07] Speaker A: Oh, that's nice.
[00:14:10] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, it's a little cheesy.
[00:14:11] Speaker A: No?
[00:14:12] Speaker B: Get some cheese whiz in there.
[00:14:13] Speaker A: I think it's nice, but I, like.
[00:14:17] Speaker B: I haven't come up with a better way, let's put it that way. But I think what I realized over time, you know, when you asked what was my brand? Like two years ago?
My brand two years ago was come as you are, whoever you are. But still, people would show up in. In the nice clothes. Basically, the two questions they always had for me were, where do we shoot and what do I wear?
[00:14:39] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:40] Speaker B: Over time, I realize if I'm giving you the location and if I'm telling you what to put on your body, are these pictures even of you, or are you just a prop? Like, are you just holding up whatever my vision of what family should look like is?
So it's hard to kind of go through this with people like, oh, I'm trying to get you as you are. And people are like, what's that?
[00:15:03] Speaker A: I. Yeah.
Because I've been thinking about this myself, because I think me and my boyfriend have kind of opposite views on this topic. Because he's more like, oh, if we're gonna have photos taken, we have to dress really nice and go have them in this cool place. But I'm more like, I want photos of us at home on the sofa with, like, our everyday clothes, like, what we would normally wear when we were there, because that's where we spend most of our time when we're not working, it's just lying on the sofa watching something on tv, cuddling with a dog. That's the photo I want on the wall with the imperfectness of just, like, this is really us. And I think that is something that's going to mean so much more in 20 years than that pretty photo with the nice dress. And, I mean, yeah, it's nice, but it doesn't show reality.
[00:16:05] Speaker B: Yeah, there's the US and there's the performance of us. And it's funny because I think it all matters in some way later. Like, you might look at that photograph of you and your boyfriend dressed really nice and be like, oh, my gosh. Look at how, like, young and handsome and pretty and, you know, like, the things. But then coming back to the couch, and I actually do. At this point, people will be like, what's your favorite location? I was like, your couch. It really is. Magic happens on couches. Kids just cuddle right up to you. They do funny things, they get into fights. I mean, magic happens on couches. But I think that, to your point, we also wanna remember who we really were.
[00:16:44] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:16:45] Speaker B: Because it brings back what it felt like exactly to be close. I mean, when my kid was, he's 15, or he's gonna be 15, he doesn't wanna snuggle. Like, that's not our relationship now. But I love remembering, you know, when we would be on the couch, like play fighting or whatever. So I think both things are valid and beautiful. Like, I never wanna put down the photography that, like I said, there are people who do such a gorgeous job at just capturing the beauty of people.
[00:17:16] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:17:17] Speaker B: Or the fantasy. I'm fine with fantasy, too.
[00:17:20] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:17:20] Speaker B: But my thing is just, you know, the couch.
Cause I think that's what I do really well. I never did the fantasy very well. Like, maybe my imagination isn't big enough. And just the other thing to add is that I think when we're looking down the road, I mean, if we look at now as AI becomes more and more obvious to us, like, I mean, it's always been there, right? Like, and now we're more aware of it. I think the humanness of us is going to be more valuable, increasingly valuable. The things that computers can't do, you know, they can't be inconsistent, they can't change their mind. And I think we're going to start looking more for what makes us human and delving into that. So in that way, I think this work I'm doing could be more rich.
[00:18:11] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:18:12] Speaker B: As time goes on.
[00:18:12] Speaker A: Yeah. I really love that perspective. I've never thought of it like that. And to your point about loving all kinds of photography, don't get me wrong, I do have some of those pretty photos as well. And I do love looking back. Like, we have a photo from Bali and it's like, oh, remember when we were there? And I definitely want that. I guess it's to do with the emotion and the reality of it. Like, this is how not just, this is how it was, but there is beauty in that as well because you often overlook the everyday moments and like, yeah, it's just like a normal day and normal days are the best.
[00:18:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:18:48] Speaker A: So, of course I want to remember that as well.
[00:18:51] Speaker B: Yeah, no, normal days are what we don't know how to appreciate. But kind of coming back to, like, your boyfriend's point of view, we're very much programmed that cameras are for special things.
[00:19:01] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:19:02] Speaker B: You know that photography is for, like, you get a professional for special things, and you use your phone for not special things.
[00:19:10] Speaker A: True.
[00:19:10] Speaker B: But what I've been studying is, like, how the phone might be getting in the way.
I'm reading this book about memory and how memory works, and it's not how we think at all. You know, for example, if you're at a concert and you're recording the concert and you want to record it because you're enjoying the music, what your brain is remembering is recording, not the concert, not the music, not the atmosphere. Because your brain doesn't care about nostalgia. Your brain wants to make you more efficient. Right? So you film it better next time.
[00:19:40] Speaker A: Right.
[00:19:41] Speaker B: So sometimes all this technology is kind of getting in the way, and I feel like part of my job is to take that burden. You're going to experience your kids. You're just going to. Your only job is to be there. Your job is not to worry about how they're behaving. If they're having a meltdown, you're going to support them through it, just like you would if I wasn't there. And I think this is. We're not used to thinking of photography this way. So there is in my brand, I have to talk about these things more, these educational, because I think my clients are like, yeah, of course. I totally get that. I totally see that. And they would see my offer as something that helps them remember things the way they want to.
But it is so different from how we think of photography as functioning.
[00:20:29] Speaker A: So interesting. And I think you're right. It probably is something you need to talk about more to make people realize what they're missing out on when they're trying to capture all the moments themselves. And also that they're. It's really hard to take photos when you're going to be in the photo, right. And then it's not. Definitely not about the thing you're doing. Whatever it is you're experiencing. It's about how to make sure that you get in the frame before the shutter comes out.
[00:20:58] Speaker B: Or, like, you know, if you're getting all your people in front of a waterfall to take that picture, like, the memory isn't experiencing the waterfall. The memory is like that time mom made us stop and, like, didn't like my smile and told me to show teeth and all the things. So I don't know. I notice also in America, we really emphasize smiling in photos. Do you feel like it's different in Europe? Because I feel like it's different no.
[00:21:23] Speaker A: I don't think so.
[00:21:24] Speaker B: No. Still, you're supposed to smile.
[00:21:26] Speaker A: You're supposed to smile. Yeah, definitely supposed to smile. And the photographer will try to get you to smile.
[00:21:36] Speaker B: I find that part so awkward too.
[00:21:37] Speaker A: That is awkward.
[00:21:39] Speaker B: It'll be nice to feel like I am fully released from that because I still feel a little bit of that pressure. Like, oh, this should be joyful or happy.
[00:21:47] Speaker A: Yeah, because you're supposed to look back and it being happy, happy memories.
[00:21:52] Speaker B: But, you know, like when babies cry, the thing is, when you're in it as a mom, that noise of your baby crying is so rattling and it's biologically like that. It's like you're supposed. You're supposed to be reacting to that. But there's no sound in a photograph. And when a mom is, like, comforting her baby, like, that is gorgeous, you just don't even know how beautiful that looks. And still without the sound, because again, the sound is alarming.
There are all these strange opportunities to remember how we were and just how much love we gave and how much love we received. But it does coming back. It has to start in a trust. Like, it has to start with trust. Like, this person's going to see me and they're not going to see the imperfection of my house or how messy my car is or whatever those things. They're not going to reveal all the insecurities. They're just going to see me as beautiful.
[00:22:51] Speaker A: Yeah. And as I was saying, I feel like everything that you've described in terms of how you work with clients and how we talked about trust is so important. I feel it's the same with branding, with going through, especially, like, a rebranding process, because in a way, it's all new and you don't know how the other end is going to look like. And I think it can be quite a painful experience. Like, there can be a lot of discomfort having to make decisions, having to trust the process. Is that your experience as well?
[00:23:26] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm sure I don't know what. Cause you were by my side as I was going through it and you were trying to help me where I was feeling a little lost or uncertain from my standpoint. I felt like I took too much time to sort of really find the right thing. Like I would know that something was wrong, but I wouldn't know what was right exactly. I was just trying to. It was like process of elimination. Especially the font I struggled with the most.
[00:23:55] Speaker A: Yeah, the fonts.
[00:23:56] Speaker B: The colors were immediate. It was like, yep, that's it. But the font was a real struggle. I think what really helped was having those four words that the brand was going to develop around, because I think when we talk about branding, we think it's about logos and font and color, but what it's really about is how we want to show up.
[00:24:17] Speaker A: Yes. And what feelings we want to evoke in our clients.
[00:24:21] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's so much more psychological than design elements. Right. So I really wanted it to feel like me and I, as we all do. It's not just me. We all are these round dimensional humans. Like, none of us fit perfectly into design elements or colors or, you know, like. And I was really. I think that is still is my struggle is, you know, sometimes I feel like we're supposed to be this, not that. Right. When the truth is we're all of the things, you know, and our presentation is supposed to be succinct, but I think having those words and having those words be in opposition with each other gave me so much permission to be so my words, just for the listener, unapologetic, vibrant, joyful and empowered. So empowered and unapologetic kind of go together, and vibrant and joyful kind of go together, but they don't all necessarily make sense together. But that's why I tended towards a font that was both kind of scripty and sweet and then also hard and capital letters, you know? And yet visually, it works.
[00:25:43] Speaker A: Yeah. It works so well.
[00:25:45] Speaker B: So it's like, I feel like I can lean into one voice or the other. And I think that's, again, why the branding has given me so much permission. Like, I made a proposal for a business yesterday and I used my own branding, but then pulled some of their elements in and it just, like, it just gave me this very empowered, like, it is okay to be these things.
Do you know what I mean? And it's okay to express this way.
[00:26:12] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:26:13] Speaker B: You know, because it wasn't a typical, as one might. One might, one might guess, it was not entirely a typical proposal. So, you know, again, it's that I think good branding helps you stay true to yourself.
[00:26:26] Speaker A: Yeah, it does. And it also helps the client to know what to expect. And one thing that I feel is completely on brand for you that you've done is your unstyled guide, because that's, you know, you go to a photographer's website and you get a lot of information, and then there's like a how to dress or how to do this and you have that. Only it's both the way it's made, which is gorgeous, but also everything it stands for. Can you explain your own style guide?
[00:26:59] Speaker B: Sure. Sure. So it's exactly that. It was a reaction, a tongue in cheek reaction to a style guide where. And I read a few, I use AI a lot to know what not to do.
If AI is like, okay, here's what all the photographers are saying. I'm like, I can do something different from that.
[00:27:19] Speaker A: Perfect.
[00:27:20] Speaker B: So that was actually how I kind of figured it out. But I wanted to give people permission to show up as themselves. So I sort of addressed various elements, like dress for the occasion. It's like if you're gonna be jumping in puddles, galoshes, if you're gonna be in the snow, like the biggest, most hideous snow suit you own, if you know, it was trying to give people permission. And I think somewhere in the guide, I even say, what if photos were about who we were? Would we even care what we were wearing? Again, it gives people permission to let the kid dress them. I think at one point I was like, let your children dress themselves and admire them for all the color and texture. Like a modernist painting. Or with the teenagers, like, let them wear everything you hate, like crocs with socks and crop tops. Because it's gonna be an opportunity to say, I told you so later. Yes, let everybody be who they are right now, because you don't get this version of your kiddo back. Like, they are gonna change. My son, who was Batman, would never put on the Batman costume. Now. Now it's all nike.
Every version is a gift.
[00:28:30] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:28:34] Speaker B: I don't know if it actually helps anyone, but I think it does distinguish that we're doing something different here and that it's so up to you. Everything's up to you. And I know that that can be intimidating for people. So, you know, I'm starting to say, especially with the newborns, like, if you're not sure, we'll pick it out when you get there. When I get there, like, don't worry. But I think especially if I'm working with a family from very early on and they get to know me and they get to understand the point, they will be more empowered to self direct and be like, oh, you know what I want? I want it to be around her learning to ride a bike. Would I wear a dress to help my kid ride a bike? I would not. So that's sort of the nature of that.
[00:29:20] Speaker A: If you want to grow your business, you should go over to engvilkolnas.com waitlist and sign up to the waitlist. And you'll be the first to know when a new slot opens up. Or send me a DM on Instagram. You'll find megwilkolnas. So I'll see you there.
I do think there's one really key piece here, which I think is probably true for pretty much everyone who has a business working with clients, and that is permission.
Unless you're overly confident and you think you have all the answers for everything, having someone tell you that's okay, we can do it that way. You're allowed to do this. That is worth so much because we don't know. We don't know what we're supposed to do. We don't know what we can do or what's okay or, and you just give them permission to, you can just come as you are, you can do this or you can do that and it's completely fine. That is so important.
Like when you have brand colors that are very vibrant or when you have a font that's pretty crazy. That's okay. You can do that. You don't have to fit into a box and be like all the other photographers out there because that is probably one of the biggest mistakes you can do when you have a business is trying to be like everyone else, but that is the safe place to be.
[00:30:51] Speaker B: Right?
[00:30:52] Speaker A: Like, oh, I see that all the other photographers are doing this thing, then I should do that too, because it must be the right way to do it. And what you've done is taken a big step away from that and that in itself, it can't be that easy. Or how has that felt like being different part?
[00:31:14] Speaker B: I feel like I probably do better with being different than many people because I was always a weird kid and my family loved me and my weirdness.
But, you know, like, I changed my mind a lot. I was initially a biology major. I turned to theology, and then I turned to art and I went to art school. That's some pretty divergent stuff right there. I mean, in my mind it's all connected. It's all like stepping stones and I couldn't do one without the other. And I'm still so influenced by all those things. So to me it makes perfect sense. You know when you're thinking about like, well, you go to engineering school and then you get your certification, you get your job. And I never lived my life that way, so that helped.
I describe myself socially as sometimes why?
There are social groups where it's like, I fit in here, but they're not always going to call me and I'm not always going to be part of it. I'm going to be like, I'm not always a vowel. I'm sometimes why I can go somewhere else. So maybe I had a little bit more comfort with that. But to your point, I think it's especially, social media is so designed to make us feel insecure in our difference.
It's designed to sell us things we need or give solutions to problems we don't necessarily have. So finding a way to reduce the noise so you can hear your own voice, like, you need to be able to hear yourself.
And that, I think that's a challenge for any humanity, walking on this big rolling rock. So I think hearing myself has been the hard part. And trusting. Right. And giving myself permission. It goes back to permission, like, me feeling like it's okay. It's okay to be different. It's okay to charge this. It's okay to embrace this policy. It's okay.
Yeah. And really, the root of that has to be being, oh, you know what it is? It's doing the work to feel like you're worth being different.
I had to do a lot of internal work to even think that I was worthy enough.
Again, it kind of goes back to, who does she think she is? That's very much in my brain.
[00:33:41] Speaker A: And it's a challenge when you don't know, because you can't know upfront what's going to work and what's not going to work, maybe what other people might think. And if you don't yourself know, yes, this is definitely the right thing to do. I should have this policy. I should choose this font. I should have this color. Then you just have to try it. And, yeah, that can be a challenge. But now that you're. I'm not sure if I'm going to use the word done with the process. But now that your brand is out there in the world, how do you feel about it now?
[00:34:21] Speaker B: It's funny because when we were in it, like, designing the site and doing the finer points of it, I felt like it was going to end when the site was released. And I actually feel like I'm at a beginning, really. Wow. Again, it's given me a visual language to play with. It's given me, I'm gonna say, like, loose boundaries. Like, yeah, I can push past them if I want to, but again, there's that framework there. Like, I feel like I have something to hold on to as I am catapulting myself.
[00:34:57] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:34:58] Speaker B: Which is what it feels like. Which is what it feels like when you're being different or saying something different or, you know, again, you see all these other photographers and the way that they're posting and the way they're engaging their audience, and you're doing it in such a different way.
So I feel like it's given me a home, like a base. A touch point. A touchstone. Yeah, it's a touchstone. It really is. Because if I see my words in all those contexts and it doesn't look right. Yeah, it's home base. And from there, I need to explore. From there, I need to journey. Yeah. Because it really is at the beginning. It really is at the beginning of how I want to feel free to talk or the kind of work that I hope it attracts because I haven't shot the work that I envision yet.
[00:35:52] Speaker A: You will.
[00:35:53] Speaker B: I think I will, too.
[00:35:54] Speaker A: Definitely. Yeah.
[00:35:55] Speaker B: And it's. It's. It's. I'm also impatient, a very impatient person. So I'm having a hard time with the time, and I was having a hard time as we were doing the site, too, where it's just like, I kept thinking, like, why can't I just get through this? Why can't I just make this decision? Why can't I just.
So I would just say to anybody who's going through it, like, give yourself time and listen to yourself. Like, if it doesn't. If something doesn't feel like you, it's not.
[00:36:25] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:36:25] Speaker B: Right.
[00:36:26] Speaker A: I agree.
[00:36:26] Speaker B: And you will find it. You will find it. And when you do have your touchstone.
[00:36:32] Speaker A: Yeah. But I do think just not thinking only about the aesthetic side of it, but going back and making sure that it's grounded in your values and the feelings that you want to evoke and all that that is so important because it doesn't really sounds a bit harsh, but it doesn't really matter if it's not your favorite color that you choose or because that's not what it's about.
[00:36:56] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:36:56] Speaker A: It's about whatever it is you want to show or need to show to get the right kinds of clients.
[00:37:05] Speaker B: That's such a good point. Because my house is not decorated in these colors. Yeah, I do not dress in these colors.
That's such a good point. It's not about picking something pretty. It's about choosing things that amplify or hold your voice up.
[00:37:23] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:37:24] Speaker B: And to your point, it's the work you do first to decide how do I want to show up for my clients? Who do I want to be? What kind of work do I want to attract? Who do I want to work with?
That's really what's fundamentally there. And everything else is just. It's packaging. It is like, I have pretty packaging, but really the content is, is where the effort has to go and the packaging will come and if it's not quite right, you'll figure it out.
[00:37:58] Speaker A: Yeah, but I do think as photographers, we have. It's almost like a head start because we have our images, which hopefully, as long as they are in your style and all that, then you have that as the groundwork because I was kind of blown away by no matter which of your photos we added to your site, your colors just fit. Like, no matter which ones. And it was like, this is, like, amazing. Like, they're completely the right colors. If you're listening now and you're like, oh, I don't know what colors to choose, I think your photos will give you a pretty good indication of what colors to go for.
[00:38:38] Speaker B: Yeah. But what's interesting, too, is that because I haven't shot the thing that's in my, like, the stuff that's in my head yet, I had to develop everything more around this future idea than what's currently on my portfolio. I expect that all the photos on my portfolio will be very different in two years time. It's not so much that my style has changed, it's just the opportunities. I think that as people better understand what it is that we're doing, they're going to lean in more and I'm going to lean in more. But I feel like my focus was more in the wording, the copy, and your prompts were so good in pulling that out for me and making it really keeping it reigned into what the client needs to know or wants to know. Like, you're so good at that. And again, I think by the time someone lands on my site, they are wanting to know more about process, that sort of thing. But I think initially, if someone finds me through, you know, social media, it's like, who is this girl? You know, it's more like there's like, different play places or different.
[00:39:52] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I understand what you're saying, but I think they can both be so, so important. And your website will show more. It'll go deeper into the things. But I do think you've had the. You've put your energy in the right place when you focus on your wording and all that, because no matter if you had used the perfect images, they're bound to change because you'll still take new ones. And I started the exact same way when I started transitioning from weddings to elopements. I looked at my portfolio and I was like, okay, so which images can I use to kind of display more elopement style photos versus just the traditional weddings? And you don't have to go out there and wait until you have everything in place, until everything's perfect, because then you're just going to be waiting. I mean, start now. There's nothing to wait for.
[00:40:44] Speaker B: And don't be impatient.
I think you're right. The time that I put in was well spent. But it is hard because you're wanting the results so badly that sometimes you rush through one thing or another. But for whatever reason, I just felt really deeply like, don't rush this.
[00:41:05] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, you did the right thing.
[00:41:07] Speaker B: But I, but I felt very, it felt very intense for me going through.
[00:41:12] Speaker A: It, because it's deep work. It's not like a superficial, like, oh, let's just buy a logo on. I don't know where people buy logos. Etsy, like probably something. It's not like that. It has to do with you as a person going deep into it, finding out about your values and what your clients desire. And that shouldn't be taken lightly. It is hard stuff.
[00:41:37] Speaker B: Yeah. No, I mean, it is hard, especially if you are trying to, and you've pointed this out a million times and it's so true, if you're being like everybody else, you are competing price wise with everybody else.
[00:41:51] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:41:52] Speaker B: And then if you are like everyone else, people go, well, I'm just going to go with the one who's cheapest. Right. And that's definitely not why I want to be chosen.
And I'm not even saying that from an ego point of view, but that gets into sustainability too. Because if you're constantly having to lower your prices in order to get the work, I mean, it just, the energy of that is so low. Like this hard, hard work of being different. Like, the energy feels so like. Because when you get that client, like, more recently I have been working with not everybody, but most of my clients have been pretty aligned. And that feels amazing. Like, it's because you're creating something together. It's a co creative and it's human and it's impactful and it's meaningful.
And that energy just can't be beat. Like, I wish that I had come to these realizations much sooner. As hard as it feels sometimes, and as alone as I feel sometimes, the client relationship is so worth it.
[00:43:02] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I completely understand that. But what if someone's listening and they're like, I am a little bit like other photographers. Or maybe I'm a lot like other photographers and I don't want to be.
What would you say to them if they're unsure and maybe feeling stuck?
This is what I see around me. So what do I do?
[00:43:26] Speaker B: I think some really useful things.
Get out a book journal for a little bit. Just talk about, you know, what jobs have you really enjoyed? What jobs could you dream up?
[00:43:43] Speaker A: Mmm, good one.
[00:43:45] Speaker B: You know, if you could do anything and it was just gonna like, light you on fire and make you feel alive, what would it be? Or even just writing a little bit more about what makes you feel human, connected, good, purposeful, alive, you know, see what might get kicked up for you. And of course, another thing that has always helped me, but again, I had the benefit of this with art education, was just putting a portfolio together, like, just a whole bunch of images. I love this image. I love this image. Don't even worry about the content or what the photos are of and put it in front of someone who's very visually literate. And ask them what they see, because people are going to say all kinds of things.
Ask them for emotions they feel like instead of descriptive words, because description is like, I see a portrait of a person, I see a bird, whatever it is. But emotions are consistent because we're reacting to the world as photographers. We're engaging it. It's capturing, we're engaging.
See what emotions get kicked up for people.
Even having those words to build on can reveal a lot about how to move forward with the clients you have or the clients you want.
[00:45:11] Speaker A: That's amazing advice. And that is something that anyone and everyone can do and probably should do at regular intervals. Like, you might be stuck and you don't even know it. What if you're just doing something and you've done that for five years and it's like, yeah, this is just what I do. And then you haven't even realized that, oh, actually, this is not who I am anymore. This is not the clients I should be working with anymore. So I think that's something that we all should do every once in a while and see, am I still, am I still doing the right thing?
[00:45:42] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I think that as creatives, we are inherently always pushing ourselves. Like, we're never fully satisfied with the thing we're doing. I think the part that scares us is letting ourselves evolve, giving ourselves, again, permission to move in a different direction or to try a different thing. Especially when, like, whatever we're doing is successful. You know, if we're getting a lot of work and that work makes us feel validated and that money makes us feel validated.
What I see, most photographers, or not even photographers creatives who are very self aware, it's giving yourself that room to move in another direction or experiment with another thing. You know, don't be afraid of it. Like, that's very human, are supposed to evolve. Like, if we're really engaging the world, we're not the same person we were yesterday and just letting that become, yeah.
[00:46:38] Speaker A: I think it's something that is or can be quite intimidating, but also very important.
[00:46:45] Speaker B: And we shouldn't all be the same. I mean, how boring. I love the idea that there are all these different photographers approaching the same group, let's just say family, such different ways and providing such different products and offers. How boring would it be?
[00:47:03] Speaker A: I know if we're all the same, all doing the same things. And that's actually one of the favorite things about working with so many different people is that they can do, you know, the same thing, but in so, like, in completely different ways, wanting to work with different people. And one thing that I've realized, because when I work with someone, especially for websites, it's like, oh, so who's your dream client? And then they explain someone and usually ending with, but that's what everyone wants. And it's like, no, that's just you. And everyone thinks that, of course this is what everyone wants. And it's like, yeah, you're the first person who's ever said that. So I think just realizing that we're different and we're supposed to be, and if we're all leaning into the thing that we most want to do, then other people could do what they most want to do instead of that feeling of like, oh, there's not enough. So I just have to take what I'm given. Because then you're missing out on the clients who you should be working with and your clients are missing out on the photographer they're supposed to have.
[00:48:08] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And I would say, like, I don't follow too many photographers on Instagram. Like, my Instagram is very, like, I follow adventures in jelly. It's just jello wiggling and something about it just my husband's like, it's very sexual. And I was like, it might be, but that's fine. Like, it's, I love adventures in jelly, but I try to watch, I try to follow people who delight me or who are, you know, just doing something. They're in a space where they wouldn't normally be invited, but they're in there, they're doing their thing, and they're kicking ass. Like, I I love that. Even if it's like a surfer or, you know, it doesn't. I don't really surround myself with photographers, but when I do, it's someone who maybe isn't in the same genre as me at all, but they're doing something really different. And when I see them pushing boundaries, it gives me permission to push boundaries. Like, you can actually cultivate that in your feed, that inspiration, that boundary pushing whatever it is that you feel like you need take a little bit of time to follow and unfollow and cultivate something that supercharges it instead of sucking it all away.
[00:49:27] Speaker A: Yeah, unfollow people that you shouldn't be following.
[00:49:31] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I still follow my friends. I'm always gonna follow my friends, but I have realized that that's a behavior I have when social media is getting to me and I'm starting to have that insecurity jealousy function. I stop liking my friends posts. And normally I like whatever they post. They could post, I killed someone today, and I would be like, well, they probably deserved it. Like, you know, but when I stop liking, when I start getting judgy about some things that people are posting, I'm like, oh, the algorithm's getting me, get off, get off, get off, get off. It's really tough to exist in this space that is so psychologically formed to get us. Get us spending money and also to be part of that, to be part of that machine is a little weird.
[00:50:18] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. And then I think that's the time to think about, okay, so remember why you're doing this. That's why. It's not because you're greedy or evil. It's because you want to make sure that people have those amazing memories that they otherwise wouldn't. So that's always, like, to what to come back to because, yeah, it's a business, and it's not a bad thing to be in business or to get paid or anything like that, but it can sometimes feel like it. I feel like that all the time when it's like, should I just do this for free? And it's like, but why? Because this is my job. This is what I do. And it's hard that, and that is something that I hear from so many people I work with. Like, that feeling of feeling bad, just feeling bad in general for, I don't know, having time off or sending out invoices or whatever it is. And we have to stop that.
[00:51:15] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:51:16] Speaker A: It's not helping anyone.
[00:51:17] Speaker B: No. It's so interesting, too, because I made a lot of cultural assumptions, because american culture is very much like, work harder, work harder and harder and harder. But maybe it's more universal, particularly among women. This idea that we're supposed to give and give and give and be tough, and.
I don't know. But I agree.
What is it in our programming? Well, patriarchy, probably, but I think it's.
[00:51:51] Speaker A: Something that I hear from women. I don't think I've ever worked with a man who's like, yeah, I feel really bad when I send out invoices, or I feel like I have to give a discount.
[00:51:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:51:59] Speaker A: Never heard that from a guy, but from girls, it's like, all the time. Like, you're not bad for asking for money for a job you've done. This is part of your agreement. Everyone knows what they've signed up for. Like, you get a service, you pay the bill. It's just how it is.
[00:52:17] Speaker B: No, you're so.
[00:52:20] Speaker A: I don't know. I feel bad. So I think, in a way, we just have to stop attaching emotion to it, because it's just how it is. You just have to click the button and send the invoice, and that's that.
[00:52:32] Speaker B: Or maybe it's like sitting with the emotion of why. Like, why do I feel this way about it?
[00:52:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:52:38] Speaker B: Because I do. I don't like sending invoices as much as I like sending proposals.
[00:52:45] Speaker A: What's that about?
[00:52:47] Speaker B: Do you know what I mean? Like, I get excited about a proposal. I'm like, here's some ideas. And, like, we could do this. We could do that.
[00:52:52] Speaker A: Oh, I think that's the opposite. I think, for me, I get more nervous when I send out proposals, because then it's like, what if they don't want to go for it? Or what if they think I'm crazy? And then with the invoice, it's like, it's a done deal. They said yes. They know this is coming. So I don't feel it around that. But I do feel more around the proposals because I don't think necessarily everyone knows what to expect.
I think that can be a scary part of it. And maybe it's the same with invoices. Maybe more information to the client about, like, this is how it works. This is how much it costs. Because then everyone knows. So there's nothing to be nervous about when the invoice is sent, because they know it's coming.
[00:53:39] Speaker B: Yeah. It's not a nervous feeling. It's a not excited feeling.
It's like, if I have a task list. Right. Like, invoice should come first.
[00:53:49] Speaker A: It should, yeah.
[00:53:51] Speaker B: And it's not just my survival as a business. It's how the transaction. Like, I actually think transactions, like, when they're exciting and level, if someone really feels like they're getting their money's worth and you really feel like you've put in the work, like, that's a good feeling.
[00:54:08] Speaker A: It is. Yeah.
[00:54:09] Speaker B: But. And yet I will still. I will still do that last, and I need to kind of dig into what that is and maybe some money mindset kind of stuff where, like, yeah, it makes me bad somehow, even, because I know that they want to pay that invoice, a, because they do want to download their files, but b, because there was a good exchange, you know?
[00:54:30] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a really interesting point. And actually, I recorded today's episode. We're now in the end of June, and I'm sure this is going to be sent in August, but I recorded today's episode earlier today. I actually talked about something that we've talked about before, Mel, which is to do with boundaries and stuff. And it kind of goes along with that, because if you are kind of over delivering way beyond what you should, I think if you don't have that balance and you don't have the boundaries in place, then it can kind of factor into invoicing, because it's like I feel annoyed because I've given way too much or I feel bad because I feel like I didn't maybe give enough. I should have. I should have done more. I could have. I could have delivered quicker, or, and that's when I see a lot of people, you know, giving extras or giving discounts and all that. And I don't think it's, I don't think it's healthy. I think making sure that, you know, this is what it needs to cost. This is what I want to make. This is what the client will get, and this is the time they're going to get it in. And if you deliver and all your promises are met, then there's no reason why you shouldn't have send the invoice and feel good about it.
[00:55:39] Speaker B: Right. Or just feel good about sending the invoice. Like, why doesn't that feel good?
[00:55:43] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:55:44] Speaker B: But just if I can plug you for a moment, like, you helped me so much with those process. Like, I see a, like, there was a time where I thought a contract was just paperwork, and it was just a bother for everybody. And I realize now, like, a contract clarifies for both, and a contract gives the other party opportunities to ask questions. It also gives you the opportunity to say, here's where this stops. Here's where this starts. Like, it's really, really good. It's good for your relationship. It's not. I thought it was stodgy or, like, too unfriendly. I actually think it's the friendliest thing now.
[00:56:26] Speaker A: Right, I agree.
[00:56:27] Speaker B: But you helped me to build my systems out so that there was so much clarity on the front end that I almost can't feel bad if the wrong person hires me and they're upset with what they get because I have held their hand the whole way through. And the contract is so specific. Yeah. So it's been so good.
[00:56:49] Speaker A: Yeah. I've had a contract before where it's like, I don't really know what it means or what it says. I just know that I have to have it. And of course, that's pretty pointless, I think. Or I know going through your contract with someone who knows what they're talking about is really important and making sure you use all your experience to get everything covered, because, as you say, it's not there just for you, it's there for insurance. We know what can happen. And if this happens, then this. And if that happens, because there's a couple of things I want to do now which are like, okay, so this is a little bit outside of what I normally do. Had it been a couple of years ago, I probably would have just said, okay, let's just do it. But now I'm like, okay, but what if? Because I don't want to be on bad terms with anyone. If something happens and something can happen, what if something happens? Then this happens, and you have to have all these things laid out. If not, then it's so easy to end up annoyed. Like, oh, they decided to stop their business after six months. And I thought, I was like, but there's no agreement. And then you're going to be annoyed because you thought something you just assumed.
[00:57:57] Speaker B: But it also shows how much you know what you're doing when you are able to think through all those situations. Like, it really affirms to someone on a very subconscious level, like, wow, they've been doing this a while to know all these things can come up.
[00:58:11] Speaker A: Yeah, I know. You're right. You do need those good agreements, and you also need to kind of trust that, yes, I know what I'm doing, and it's a great way to build our relationship with your client as well, to ensure that they know what they can expect. 100%, as you said, like it's a. It's the nicest thing.
[00:58:33] Speaker B: It's benevolent.
[00:58:33] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:58:34] Speaker B: Like all of these boundaries, all of these being ourselves.
We're not. I think. I think that's what I want people to know. You're not excluding people. You're not being stodgy. Like, all of this is relationship building, all of this is benevolent, all of this, like it makes the world better. I heard one mentor say, how are you? The medicine in the world?
[00:58:57] Speaker A: Oh, that's nice.
[00:58:58] Speaker B: Yeah. I love that. Because all of us, in our own tiny little way, in our little thread of the great big tapestry, we all have a role to play. And when you really walk into yourself, you make the world better. There's no doubt in my mind.
[00:59:14] Speaker A: I love that. And when it comes to your potential, money blocks around sending invoices. There's a money mentor that I follow who I love. You should listen to her podcast. She's called Denise Duffield Thomas. She's from Australia and she's brilliant. She's so funny and she has just the best podcast. Denise Duffield Thomas. I don't remember the name of her podcast right now, but it's really good.
[00:59:39] Speaker B: Yeah, put that in the show notes because I'll look it up.
[00:59:41] Speaker A: I will.
[00:59:42] Speaker B: I'll look it up for sure.
[00:59:46] Speaker A: It's been so lovely talking with you, Mel, as always. You have such great insights and you know what to say to people, but you also, you're not afraid to share your own experience as how things have been for you. And I think it's so common, unfortunately, to only talk about how nice and great and perfect everything is. But it's. Sometimes things are hard and sometimes you're going through a process and it's not like, oh, yes, everything was perfect from one place to the next. No, there were challenges and it is rough kind of digging into branding things. And I think in a way it has to be because if you're going deep, it kind of has to be because it's not about choosing the right shade of pink, it's about something way deeper than that. And it just shows that you've really done the work, I think.
[01:00:37] Speaker B: Thanks. Thank you for walking me along the way. Couldn't have done it without your guidance the whole way through and your skills and just being able to like, read off of my energy and take an idea and make it better. Cannot recommend you more highly for web work for the sustainable program. Like you have helped me so much. Thank you.
[01:00:57] Speaker A: Oh, thank you so much. That means a lot to hear. Of course. But I will definitely share your links in the show notes so everyone can see how amazing your presences. Because I'm sure you're gonna get the best clients any day now.
[01:01:14] Speaker B: Yeah. Anybody? Reach out to me. I just. I love making new friends, so.
[01:01:18] Speaker A: Perfect. Thanks, Mel. We'll talk soon.
[01:01:21] Speaker B: Great talking. Yeah.
[01:01:23] Speaker A: Bye.
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