Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome back to Sustainable Photography. I'm Ingrid Collnes, and today I want you to meet Christine. She has been a wedding photographer for almost 10 years and she's been photographing people for almost 12. She's Canadian, living in Houston, and she really loves helping her clients feel gorgeous and empowered during their shoots.
You're listening to Sustainable Photography, a podcast all about business tips, inspiration, and confidence building. I'm Ingrid Colness, the host of this podcast. And after over a decade as a photographer, I now help talented photographers run sustainable businesses. And for full transparency, you should know that I'm a mentor with paid offers, and I will probably mention some of those in this episode.
Hello, Christine. I'm so excited to have you here today and I want everyone to get to know you. So can you just tell everyone who you are and what you're passionate about?
[00:01:03] Speaker B: Yes. Thank you for having me on here today. I'm pretty excited to be here too. I'm Christine. I am a wedding and portrait photographer in Houston, born and raised in the Toronto area in Canada, and I've been photographing people for well over 10 years now.
[00:01:19] Speaker A: Wow, 10 years. That's. Yeah, yeah, same as me.
[00:01:22] Speaker B: Yeah, it's been. I can't believe it, actually. I'm like, has it really been that long?
Because sometimes you just feel like you're too close to yourself and your work and you still feel like you're a beginner, but like, no, I've been doing it for long enough that I know a few things now.
[00:01:38] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure you know more than a few things. There are some things that you're kind of more passionate about than others. And that's what I want to talk about today. So can we just start there? Like, tell us, tell us your passion.
[00:01:56] Speaker B: I'm really passionate about couples who exist in larger bodies being actually represented in the wedding industry. Industry. I was a plus size bride myself and I've had lots of experiences with that and the challenges of trying to plan a wedding when people don't account for your body size. But I see it with a lot of couples who hire me and who don't hire me. And I see the images online and I just think to myself, we can do better and we can be better. And there's also the lack of images at the same time. So even when we are shown, it's not always necessarily the most attractive photos. But then a lot of the times we're barely shown, so we're only seeing unattractive photos, which doesn't help Right.
[00:02:44] Speaker A: Is that the main way that you see this problem? The fact that there's just not enough photos out there?
[00:02:52] Speaker B: I think it's a symptom.
[00:02:54] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:02:55] Speaker B: I think it's an overarching problem that the wedding industry only promotes and looks at really thin people, and the more attractive, the better, and that's how they can sell their services.
[00:03:08] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:03:09] Speaker B: And so if you do, like, a quick search in the word wedding on Pinterest or Instagram, you will not see anyone who exists in a larger body pop up at all.
[00:03:21] Speaker C: Really?
[00:03:21] Speaker A: And you've done the research, I imagine.
[00:03:24] Speaker B: Yes, I did it recently, and I made a TikTok video about it. And I was on my stories yesterday, and people were.
I had a lot of women actually reaching out to me, saying I was a size 12 or 14, and I got married, like, five or six years ago, and it was so hard to navigate the space because I didn't see myself. And they were, like, very happy that I post this because they feel like it's something that's just not talked about enough.
[00:03:54] Speaker C: Right.
[00:03:55] Speaker A: So if the photos. That's the symptom. What do you think is, like, the underlying problem that's, oh, so much deeper.
[00:04:06] Speaker B: And I'm not really a therapist, but I would say, like, it's fatphobia. Like, people who exist in larger bodies are considered less than. We're considered unhealthy, we're considered lazy, we're paid less. We don't get as many opportunities, and we're discounted.
And so I have to work so much harder to be taken as seriously as a photographer because of how my body looks. And that doesn't even account for the fact that I'm a woman.
[00:04:38] Speaker A: So you can kind of tell. You can tell the difference between, like, yourself and your peers that you're kind of thought of in a different way.
[00:04:48] Speaker B: Sometimes it's unspoken. It's more like an energy. So. But I.
And I think a lot of people who exist in larger bodies will understand this, is that I approach it with a lot of humor, and I try to break down those barriers. But there's still people who, in my industry and in my city don't talk to me or associate with me. And the only thing I can see is that they only associate with the prettiest, thinnest people in the industry. It's just a lived experience. And some people will just say, I'm being sensitive. But if you don't exist in a body where you have a lot of weight on you, you don't see the looks and you don't get the comments and you just have no idea. So you are very aware and sensitive to those looks. So you pick them up faster than other people will.
[00:05:38] Speaker C: Right.
[00:05:39] Speaker A: It makes sense. I just think it's very sad. But that's the reality. That's where we are now. What can we do both as photographers, specifically as wedding photographers and as wedding vendors in general, to make sure that we're inclusive and we're not leaving anyone out?
[00:06:01] Speaker B: That's tough. It's sort of an unconscious bias and I've been guilty of it too. Like if you look through my feed, you won't see a ton of plus sized people.
And I can go into like the nuances of why for my stuff, but we are just prone to showing what we know will get the likes and the shares. And so our unconscious bias bias plays into that. And I think that if you're avoiding communicating or getting to know someone who exists in a larger body because they make you uncomfortable, I think you should look inward and ask yourself why that makes you so uncomfortable. What is that person who's just doing their best? Why is that something that triggers you?
[00:06:46] Speaker A: And I kind of imagine that maybe it's harder when you're a plus size bride to just find a wedding dress that looks good because I think there's just fewer options, which makes it even harder. It kind of just reinforces the whole situation.
[00:07:08] Speaker B: It really does. So I got married in 2011. I was in the Toronto area and there was not a single shop who carried any sample sizes that I could try on. And I was told to pin it to the front of my body.
Like that would work and I'd be able to tell. Yeah, yeah.
[00:07:28] Speaker A: That doesn't make any sense.
[00:07:31] Speaker B: Like I can't tell how that's going to look on my very voluptuous butt.
Like, I don't know. So I had to go to David's Bridal in the United States and try on dresses because they were the only retailer back then who had sample sizes that would fit my body. And thankfully, in the last 13 years, things have gotten better. We have more designers who are creating more sample sizes that are larger. But then it also comes down to the gown shops to order those sample sizes in those size to help women who exist in larger bodies to be able to wear these, try on these samples. And also another thing about sample sizes is that they're generally save. It's a size 18, it's actually going to be a size 14. Like wedding gown. Dresses are not street size samples.
So Say if you're me and I'm a size 22, I would have to go to specialty shops to be able to find a sample that would fit me.
[00:08:40] Speaker C: Right.
[00:08:41] Speaker B: I still wouldn't be able to go somewhere. And there's a few in our area. There's Olivia's Bridal House in Houston. That's amazing. And there's a few other shops that also carry plus. But she makes a point to carry like a great range, like up to a size 30. And I'm like, that's incredible.
[00:08:59] Speaker A: But I mean having the sizes, that's I would imagine one part of it. But the selection that you'd have to choose from, I mean that would probably be even harder to like find something you actually like.
[00:09:16] Speaker B: So much harder. Yep. I found that there are a lot of dresses that use like the same lace for all the plus size dresses. And so all of the plus size brides start to look the same and they're not given like the new cutting edge, beautiful, trendy dresses as samples to try on. So we just look like we're not trying when we don't have the ability to try because we're already taken out of the equation.
[00:09:48] Speaker A: Yeah. No options.
[00:09:49] Speaker B: And I know that Bridal Fashion Week is happening in New York City and I think that they would be hard pressed to have one single plus size body there. Especially since the latest trends have been, you know, showing smaller and smaller bodies. Because we're revisiting stuff from 90s where cocaine chic was a thing, which was a very bad time.
[00:10:12] Speaker A: Yeah, that all makes, well, I was going to say it makes sense, but it does make sense when you are already saying what you're saying. So yeah, I understand it's, it's really just making the situation worse and worse. But is there like, I don't know, plus size bridal magazines, like, is there something to kind of deal with this problem in a way or is everything just the same?
[00:10:39] Speaker B: There is an Instagram or like a. There's Pretty Pear Bride and they're fairly big in the wedding industry, but they're just one.
And so they're doing their best to showcase beautiful plus size couples.
But there really isn't a lot of people out there talking about this or making a point to try and combat it. But I love pretty Pear Bride and I love their online space that they have. They're akin to like style Me Pretty but very focused on plus size couples.
I would also there's another blog out there that will feature plus size people. When I was on Brides of Houston, which is now wedlink or something. I don't remember. I know that myself and a few others fought tooth and nail to get plus size representation in there, and we were somewhat successful, but since we stopped advertising with them, they've stopped showcasing it, really.
[00:11:40] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:11:41] Speaker A: If you kind of look at this from a business perspective, if you were to be the one to create this niche, whether it's as a photographer or as a wedding dress designer or whatever it is, you would probably get a lot of business.
[00:12:00] Speaker B: Yeah, you would get so much business. 67% of women in the United States are size 14 and up and there.
[00:12:08] Speaker A: Are hardly any wedding dresses.
[00:12:11] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Like, there's such a vacuum in this industry that they could capitalize on and get a huge market share because those people are getting married.
[00:12:23] Speaker A: Of course. Yes.
That's amazing.
[00:12:27] Speaker B: So. And we're not even talking about, like, the men. I don't know the statistics on men, but, like, they're out there. Like, I live in Houston and there's a lot of plus size people in Houston.
I can tell you that there are very few retailers for men to help them look good too. I've had to sort of help my plus size grooms with where to go and what fit should look like because they don't know.
They just want to put the pants just underneath the belly. And I'm like, but when we're posing, I want you to put your hand in your pocket and not look awkward. So you've actually got to put it around your waist.
[00:13:04] Speaker C: Right.
[00:13:05] Speaker B: And that makes them uncomfortable. So it's also combating their self consciousness for themselves on top of people, not giving them great fit for their clothing.
[00:13:17] Speaker C: Right.
[00:13:18] Speaker A: So in a way, when you do what you do, which is make couples feel great, it's not just about the posing, which we're going to get to, but it's also about helping them find the right clothing that would actually fit them in the best possible way.
[00:13:35] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I've tried to make friendships in a network in the Houston area with retailers, so I know who to refer people to and help them.
[00:13:46] Speaker A: That's really great.
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How do you want people to perceive photos taken of plus sized people and couples?
[00:14:11] Speaker B: I want them to approach it like it's any other person and they're putting as much, if not more effort into making them look beautiful and make it about the moment. Because a lot of the times when they don't know how to pose a plus sized person, then your eye goes to the fact that that person looks weird or uncomfortable. And when someone does know how to pose a plus sized person, all you're taking in is the sheer beauty of that moment.
[00:14:38] Speaker A: Okay. First, making people feel comfortable, that's. That's fine. And then there's posing. But is there more to it? Is there more to, like, is there a technique? Is there something to do with lighting? Like, how do we actually accomplish this?
[00:14:51] Speaker B: I think it's a combination of posing, but it's also how you feel of that person.
So if you feel that that person is beautiful, you're going to make them look beautiful in your lens.
[00:15:04] Speaker A: Okay?
[00:15:05] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:15:06] Speaker B: So I feel like a lot of people in media need to deconstruct their fat phobia and look at it and come to terms with it and understand that we're just human beings and we're real people with souls. And some of us have. I have hormone problems. And so for me to lose weight is really hard.
And I can promise you that all of our lives we have been told by so many people that if we just ate less and moved more, we could be thin. And for me, that was just categorically untrue. I was doing CrossFit. I was eating 1200 calories a day. My nutritionist had to rewire my brain to get me to eat more because I was undereating so severely and I was not losing weight. I was gaining weight because I had insulin resistance and pcos.
And so there's just so much misunderstanding about people who exist in larger bodies and it colors how they perceive us. And so if you can take that discoloration out of your brain, you will see that we are all beautiful.
[00:16:22] Speaker A: So that's what's at the core, really. Like, it's about how we look at people and how we then choose to pose people or choose to kind of photograph them because we're not like seeing them at their best, in a way.
[00:16:37] Speaker B: Yeah. And also the media has not helped with TV shows and the like, where people who exist in larger bodies are usually villains or just like dumpy and a mess. And so you don't have a lot of great examples.
And I'm glad that we have stuff like Bridgerton now where we finally have a female lead who's incredibly beautiful and desired. But it hasn't been that way for so long, you know, and it's a one off.
[00:17:07] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:08] Speaker B: And there was so much controversy around it. Too. So there's so much work that still needs to be done mentally and emotionally. And I think some of the phobia and the discoloration in your brain about it comes from the fact that you're terrified of becoming plus size yourself.
[00:17:25] Speaker C: Right.
[00:17:26] Speaker A: So it becomes like an exception. When you see something that's nice, like a nice photo, it would be like the exception rather than the rule. And maybe when you pair that with the fact that there's not a lot of clothing options and your photographer doesn't know how to pose, it just becomes a bit of a nightmare. It becomes almost impossible to to make something nice out of it.
[00:17:51] Speaker B: It's a self fulfilling prophecy 100%.
[00:17:55] Speaker A: That makes sense.
[00:17:56] Speaker B: And unless you have the money as a plus size person to get like an outfit completely made for you for your body type, you are left to whatever is given to you.
[00:18:09] Speaker A: And before we started recording, you showed me some photos that you thought were absolutely beautiful. What would you say those photos had in common? Like, what's the common thread between the beautiful photos that you see?
[00:18:23] Speaker B: I feel like the photographer knew how to pose that person and I really feel like they loved that person.
But they also took the time to make sure that they looked incredible and they were focusing on making them look almost like fine art.
[00:18:42] Speaker C: Right.
[00:18:43] Speaker B: There was one photo where the veil just completely went over her and the flowers were underneath. And typically you only see straight sized people in that pose in that sort of beautiful artistic way that she was captured. And it was refreshing to see a plus sized person look so stunning and look like they could be painted and just go on a wall looking exactly like that.
[00:19:09] Speaker A: So really that's an example of a photo where the same exact thing could have been done. Like no matter what body type you have.
[00:19:18] Speaker B: Yeah. I would even say like you need to start looking at plus size people. Like they can be art too. Because I feel like we look at stray sized people like they can be art and we post them and put them in outfits and do hair and makeup that helps transition them into that. But plus size people, a lot of the times from what I've seen personally, are not given that same attention, that detail, that sort of like over the edge beauty attention that straight size people just get.
[00:19:51] Speaker A: Yeah, because that's how it sounds to me. Like now where it's just a matter of the eye and the attention, it's not really anything else. I understand that in some instances that is the case when you have to be mindful of posing and everything like that. But it doesn't have to, to be like that. And in those cases, it's just a matter of you just have to use your eyes and just do it. Treat people with the respect that they deserve.
[00:20:18] Speaker B: Yeah. Look at them like they're real people and I would say fall in love with them a little bit. I think your photos become so much better as a photographer, categorically across the board, when you really love the people that you photograph, you can see the changes in the photos you take when you really care for them.
[00:20:37] Speaker A: Yeah, I think you're right. I have had a couple of couples where it's like, oh, these people are not the nicest to me. And that does make it a little harder when it's like, oh, I don't, I don't know what to do because I just don't like them.
[00:20:54] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:55] Speaker A: So, yeah, I think you're right. You do have to love your couples.
[00:20:59] Speaker B: Yeah. So again, I feel like we need to do some internal work because if you're going to capture plus size people and it's important for you to showcase them, then we need to figure out how to get you to love us. We can't infect you with our fatness. There's no way. And we're all struggling with a whole bunch of stuff internally ourselves and we just, we want to be seen.
[00:21:27] Speaker A: Yeah, but when you do pose, since we're already talking about it, when you do pose, what can we do as photographers to make plus size people? Couples feel confident and feel like they're supposed to feel on their wedding day.
[00:21:42] Speaker B: I would say you need to have the conversation with them before the wedding or their engagement session about their body in the most delicate way possible.
Because we are way more self conscious about our bodies than a straight sized person. We don't like our arms, we don't love our bellies.
Sometimes too much boob makes us look larger. And of course, every person I've ever met doesn't like their double chin.
So it's not everyone. Some people embrace their body and they're like, whatever, let's just have fun. But there's other people who are incredibly self conscious and you need to just have that conversation with them beforehand and say, hey, I just want to be really aware of what makes you anxious and how you want to be captured. Because I don't want you to come back to me after I send you your engagement photos and you say, can you edit me to look thinner? Which is, I don't want to do that. Like, I want you just to feel beautiful. So what are your Hang ups about yourself. So I know how to pose you better on your wedding and at your engagement session because once I know what their hangups are, then I can know what poses to do with them.
[00:23:02] Speaker C: Right.
[00:23:03] Speaker B: To make them look better.
[00:23:04] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:23:05] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:23:06] Speaker B: And so then when I get to the. And I try to make sure that every couple does an engagement session because not every couple fits together the same. And so you have to learn how to capture them in their unique way.
So I like to do more movement with plus size couples because the more you move, the more likely you are to sort of not be stuck on how your body looks, but more like the expression on your face.
But I also really, and this is a big thing for myself and a lot of plus size people is if you just have us a lot of like straight sized people, you can just put them belly to belly, forehead to forehead, and it's a beautiful photo. But with a plus sized person, we're wider and we don't. We're self conscious about both our stomachs and our butts. And so you can't really do that. So you've got to figure out how to twist and do angles. And maybe the forehead to forehead pose isn't going to be something that you can do. You've got to do a different pose. And so you've got to learn how to work with like the S curve and how to get someone to look like they're curvy. It also comes down to their choice of clothing. So again, beforehand, I'm working with them more closely with what they're wearing. I'll ask for photos of them in the clothes, not just on their bed, to make sure that I know going into it, I have a game plan.
[00:24:32] Speaker C: Right.
[00:24:32] Speaker B: So that way I can showcase them in their most attractive way.
[00:24:36] Speaker A: So no cookie cutter. No. Like, this is how you always do it. You tailor your shoots to every single couple.
[00:24:43] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:24:44] Speaker A: Great. Yeah, that's. That's excellent. Yeah. And I'm sure that when you've had that conversation, they will be more relaxed going into it and they'll enjoy it more.
[00:24:54] Speaker B: I assume most of them are way more confident. They feel a lot of the times, like I'm almost like a therapist where they're. Where we just have that conversation. And because I exist in a larger body myself, it's like you're talking to a friend who really understands where the hangups are. I've been blessed. I've had a couple of brides who exist in larger bodies and really love themselves and we could do anything and they're like, I love this and this looks great, and we could just play and have fun. And that was a lot of fun. And she knew how to dress herself. And all of her clothing really did accentuate all of the best parts of her body. Showed off her curves in a beautiful way. And we just leaned into it.
[00:25:38] Speaker C: Right.
[00:25:39] Speaker A: When you're kind of talking about this and explaining it, I am wondering, do you think it's easier for you to relate to your clients and for your clients to trust you since you yourself exist in a larger body, like you say? And do you think it could come across in, like, a wrong way if someone else were to do it?
[00:26:00] Speaker B: I don't think it would come across as wrong way if someone else were to do it. I think that the more people who have the knowledge on how to approach someone who exists in a larger body, the better.
I just have more lived experience.
[00:26:14] Speaker C: Right.
[00:26:15] Speaker B: That's it. I just have, like, that you look at, like if people who've gone through trauma together, you just have to look at each other and you see in each other's eyes what they went through. And so we just know.
[00:26:26] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:26:27] Speaker B: But if someone really wants to start showcasing couples who exist in larger bodies, you can just sort of lean into trying to understand where they're coming from without judgment.
Because there's a lot of judgment that is placed on people who are plus size a lot. Like, we're considered completely unhealthy and lazy and less than. And it's crazy.
[00:26:51] Speaker A: Yeah, I understand.
It must be really hard as well when you're feeling, like, so left out.
[00:26:59] Speaker B: Yeah. But it's really funny though, that as a plus sized person, you've been left out of a lot of things, so it almost becomes like, sadly normal.
[00:27:10] Speaker C: Oh, no.
[00:27:11] Speaker A: That makes it. That makes it worse.
[00:27:14] Speaker B: No, I just. I approach situations like, all right, I'm going to see how far this will go, but it may not be 100%. It could be like 80%, where my other friends who are thin will get to the 100%. And I just. I'm aware.
[00:27:30] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:27:31] Speaker A: But one thing is the posing, because you have a system for that. You talk with your couples and you know how to pose them. What about when it's not post shots? Like shots, candid shots from throughout the wedding day, for example. How do you deal with that?
[00:27:47] Speaker B: I really try to photograph candid shots more from up above because a lot of the times it's a great angle for people who exist in larger bodies. Any direction you take a photo of them. If you Shoot them from underneath. That's just going to not work out for anyone. It always. There's always like extra chins or there's like some sort of like weird arm jiggle happening, but from up above, I don't know, it's. There's like a 45 degree angle. It's such a sweet spot.
So in a lot of the times, I just. I try to, like, look for something that's really powerfully emotional. So they're not looking at their body, they're looking at the moment.
[00:28:23] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, that. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah.
Okay, so let's say we've done it now. We've got all these amazing photos of couples of all shapes and sizes.
How can we use them in the best possible way to make sure that we are being inclusive?
[00:28:44] Speaker B: I would have it on all of your social media. It doesn't have to be everywhere. I usually try to post one person in a larger body in like the 12 grid on my Instagram. So at least they pop up once there. And then I have them on at least every page of my website.
I would love to get more of them published in magazines, but a lot of the times that gets declined. But also getting published in general is so much harder than it was back in 2016. So that whole entire thing is just very hard in general.
[00:29:21] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:29:22] Speaker B: Even people who are incredibly beautiful and have like incredible styled shoots or like, even beautiful weddings are not being featured, I think because they just get so many submissions.
[00:29:35] Speaker C: Right.
[00:29:36] Speaker A: But still, going back to that potential of the industry, it does seem like more people should start up some wedding blogs or magazines to publish and just to do something with this, both in terms of, like. Because you can do it in two ways. You can do it as like, this is something I believe in, this is something I want to do something about. But it's also great for business. There's a lot of things that can come from that.
[00:30:04] Speaker B: I think one of the steps would be to have designers and magazines come together and create a line of outfits that are just as trendy for straight sized people as they are plus sized people. So they can lean into it. It would be great to have them featured at Fashion Week that's happening right now. I feel like it's just one off designers who feature plus size people. And a lot of the times at these fashion weeks, they're showcasing like a size 12, which is not like, it would be lovely to see a size 18 on a Runway is all I'm saying. So I just feel like. I feel like the people who are in charge of almost like the media itself need to have an awakening and say, you're leaving a lot off of the table. And people who exist in larger bodies would like to see themselves. So is there a way that we can have that included? But I don't even, I wouldn't even know where to begin to get them to start doing that.
[00:31:10] Speaker C: Right.
[00:31:10] Speaker B: It feels like such a big problem that I'm only one person.
[00:31:14] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:31:15] Speaker B: So my, my way of tackling it is to try and talk to as many plus sized couples as possible on my social media and gain awareness for it.
[00:31:25] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's important. And you were already doing that.
[00:31:28] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:31:30] Speaker A: And you have a workshop coming soon.
[00:31:33] Speaker B: Yes. So I was, this past spring I saw a post of a couple who had inquired with me, but ultimately I was outside their budget, which is absolutely fine. And I saw their engagement photos and I teared up from frustration for them because if the look of the photos was so bad, it felt like the photographer hated them.
And I just was like, this is such a huge disservice to plus size couples that we have people who are photographing them who don't know how to photograph their bodies and make them look good. And so I decided there, I'm like, I've got to figure it out. But I need to teach photographers and videographers and even content creators how to photograph plus size bodies. So this workshop is the culmination of like six months of trying to figure out how to do it and how to market it and where to do it and.
But it's happening. It's going to be happening in Houston on January 22nd at Briscoe Manor.
[00:32:45] Speaker C: So it's a live workshop.
[00:32:46] Speaker B: Yes. So we're going to be doing two hours of education where I'll go through terrible poses and like how to do it better and like the sweet spot for plus sized bodies. And then I'm working with the venue and a planner and we're putting together a huge style shoot with three different plus sized couples to then have them go practice what they learn.
[00:33:13] Speaker C: Right.
[00:33:14] Speaker A: That sounds like a brilliant thing to attend.
[00:33:17] Speaker B: Yeah. And we're not going to make it look what you always see plus size people doing. It's going to be very like modern and edgy and like out of the pages of Vogue. Like we're not holding back, we're like, no, we're going to go all out and it's going to include plus size people in a scenario that you don't see them in necessarily because we're just relegated to what's left over.
[00:33:42] Speaker A: Nice.
[00:33:43] Speaker B: We're not doing that. Like, I'm trying to reach out to fashion designers who have just been finding out about and seeing if they have any edgy dresses that they'd be willing to send us, and then trying to find either influencers or models who would fit into those sample dresses. So that way we can have the best.
Wow.
[00:34:03] Speaker A: Impressive.
[00:34:04] Speaker B: I really think that influencers would be better than models because models understand their body. And I want, I really want these photographers and videographers to kind of work.
[00:34:13] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:34:13] Speaker B: Like, do some learning how you. Someone who may not necessarily know how to move their body the way a model would.
[00:34:20] Speaker A: I think that's a great idea because whenever I've gone to workshops and the couple, if they're even a real couple, if they're models, like, that's the worst. Because it's like there's no way I would ever like, recreate this in real life, like, ever, ever.
[00:34:34] Speaker B: You know, because your average couple that you're photographing on a wedding day has no idea how to move their body.
So unless they were like one of my brides right now, she's a dancer, so she understands her body a little bit better. But most couples are not dancers, so they don't know.
[00:34:52] Speaker A: Yeah. And even if one person in the couple might know, it doesn't really help because the other person, the other one's lost.
[00:35:00] Speaker B: They're like, where, where am I?
[00:35:02] Speaker A: I'm in C.
Absolutely. But it does sound like this is something that you can kind of do even more of. I would imagine doing something similar for family photographers as well, where there's like a family of plus sized people because you see it all the time. That, that just, it just doesn't look right.
[00:35:24] Speaker B: Yeah. And I even had. I was at a networking meeting and someone said, okay, so I'm not a photographer, videographer, but I would like to know how to pose myself better. Can I just attend? And I'm like, I never even thought of that.
[00:35:39] Speaker A: Oh, wow.
[00:35:40] Speaker B: Like, that's incredible. So even just having like a workshop where you can have like a lower price for like the beginning part, where someone who isn't great at posing themselves, they want to understand and learn how to hold their body so that they get better photos.
[00:35:55] Speaker A: Yeah. That's a brilliant idea. And I hope that you can get enough publicity for this so that it gets picked up and people start to see, like, it doesn't have to be as awkward as they might have felt up until this point.
[00:36:09] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:36:10] Speaker A: Both in terms of like how it feels for the couples, but also how it feels for the photographers. Because if you don't know, then it will be something that you're scared of and you don't really know how to handle it.
[00:36:21] Speaker B: I was terrified the first time I captured a plus sized couple because a lot of the times if you have one person in the couple who's a little bit smaller, you've got a little bit more leeway. But when both of them exist in larger bodies, you have less poses you can do and it becomes more of a challenge.
[00:36:39] Speaker C: Right.
[00:36:40] Speaker B: And so I was pooping my pants a little bit before that session, but I loved how the photos turned out and so did the couples. So, like, it worked out okay.
[00:36:50] Speaker A: So you kind of know that there's, there's more limitations, but if you know about it going in, then it's a lot easier.
[00:36:56] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:36:57] Speaker A: Okay. I'm sure it's going to be very helpful for those who attend your workshop and for those of us who aren't in Texas. What can we do to learn more about this?
[00:37:09] Speaker B: I am working on making it into education that exists on my website. We're not there yet because we haven't had the first workshop yet. But also one of my goals is to travel and teach people and make the workshop something that happens in different cities.
[00:37:26] Speaker C: Nice.
[00:37:27] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a great goal to have.
[00:37:29] Speaker B: Yeah. So I think that some people can travel to me, but I can also come to them and we can use like the beautiful spaces that are in those cities that you usually only see size 0 couples being photographed at. And we're going to put some plus sized people in there and make it look just as good or not better.
[00:37:48] Speaker A: Amazing. Yeah. Look at you transforming the wedding industry.
[00:37:52] Speaker B: One person at a time.
[00:37:53] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, that's great. That's great. So where can we go to follow you to learn more about you? Do I know you're on TikTok?
[00:38:02] Speaker B: Yes. So I'm on Instagram, TikTok, swish and click photography and then my website is Swish and click.
[00:38:11] Speaker C: Nice.
[00:38:11] Speaker A: I will be sure to put that in the show notes so that we can easily go follow you and try to learn something from what we see on Instagram and TikTok.
[00:38:22] Speaker B: Yeah. And don't be afraid if you have a plus sized couple to post them in your feed. Like, I know sometimes you're not going to get the same like a hundred likes, but you're showing up for a demographic who feels truly ignored.
[00:38:37] Speaker A: That's a very good point. Yeah. Thank you. For that.
[00:38:40] Speaker B: Thank you.
Thanks for having me. It was so fun.
[00:38:44] Speaker A: Yeah. I'm glad we got to have this conversation. It's really important.
[00:38:48] Speaker B: It really is. It's very, very passionate for me to have us be seen as beautiful because I feel like a lot of the times people who exist in larger bodies aren't considered attractive. And that's just not categorically untrue.
[00:39:03] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely untrue. It's not okay.
[00:39:06] Speaker B: Not okay.
[00:39:07] Speaker A: I'm glad you're doing everything you're doing to both to change the wedding industry, to empower photographers to do a better job, but also to make couples feel beautiful and like themselves.
[00:39:20] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't want them to have the disservice of having someone look at their engagement photos and get emotional about it because you feel like the photographer hated them.
[00:39:30] Speaker A: I don't even know. Like, I don't know what to say to that. That's just. Yeah.
[00:39:33] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:39:34] Speaker A: Not okay.
[00:39:34] Speaker B: It's. It isn't.
[00:39:36] Speaker A: But thank you. And I will link to your Instagram, your TikTok and your website, and I can't wait to hear more about how your workshop went.
[00:39:43] Speaker B: I'm so excited for it. It's going to be amazing.
[00:39:46] Speaker A: It is. Yeah. Definitely. Thanks so much.
[00:39:50] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:39:53] Speaker A: You just listen. Listen to an episode of Sustainable Photography. Please share this episode with a photographer you care about.
