Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: This is episode 163 of Sustainable Photography. I'm your host, Inguil Kolness, and today I have my friend Giryl Sartre with me. She is a Norwegian photographer who went to university in the uk. She's married and she has two girls, and she's now a documentary photographer. And that is what we're going to talk about today. How she has chosen to specialize in documentary photography and how that's different from pretty much any other kind of photography where nothing is staged and you have to tell the story as it unfolds. I also want to mention that after having this podcast for almost three and a half years, releasing an episode pretty much every single Tuesday during that time, it's about time to transition from an every single week kind of podcast to a more seasonal approach.
Basically because I want to try something new. I think that is important when you're running a business, to just see how different things work and not to stagnate and being stuck.
So I don't know how it's going to work out, but I want to try it. So in a little bit, there probably won't be an episode every single Tuesday, but I'll let you know what happens.
Over to my conversation with Giril.
[00:01:28] Speaker B: Now.
[00:01:31] Speaker A: You'Re listening to Sustainable Photography, a podcast all about business tips, inspiration and confidence building. I'm Ingrid Colness, the host of this podcast. And after over a decade as a photographer, I now help talented photographers run sustainable businesses. And for full transparency, you should know that I'm a mentor with paid offers, and I will probably mention some of those in this episode.
[00:02:00] Speaker B: Hi, Gurel. I'm so excited to have you on the podcast finally. We've been talking about this for a while. Do you want to start by just telling the listener who you are?
[00:02:10] Speaker C: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I'm Gerald. I'm a photographer and west coast of Norway, and I specialize now in documentary photography within family and weddings.
[00:02:21] Speaker B: That's really nice. And I know that you didn't start out being a documentary photographer. I know you had a very different start to your career. Do you want to tell us how you got started?
[00:02:33] Speaker C: Yeah, I think I kind of done the whole circle of where I wanted to go, where I didn't want to go. So I started out as an apprentice in Norway, kind of as a typical portrait photographer. And I said to myself, I'm not going to be one of those typical Norwegian family photographers. So I went abroad and studied, and my interest quite quickly shifted into more like fashion and music. Kind of like inspired by music.
And then after having a second child, we kind of suddenly found ourselves back in Norway after a few years in England and, you know, just doing a little bit here, a little bit there. And I found myself being the family photographer that I didn't want to be.
But luckily, after a full circle, I now I think I found my place in photography where it's kind of. It's not just the pictures, but it's the memories behind the pictures which is very important to me.
[00:03:40] Speaker B: So that's what you're kind of seeking, it's the memories?
[00:03:45] Speaker C: Yeah, I guess so. I always found myself looking at old pictures and like kind of fantasizing and dreaming. About what, how their lives work. Like even old pictures of people that I don't even know. And also time goes so fast. Our everyday life is just like a non stop hamster wheel of happenings. And when you look back on pictures, you remember, you remember the good times, you remember the people. That's important for you. And for me, that's what photos are all about, the values behind the picture.
[00:04:20] Speaker B: Absolutely. Because it's not been that many years where you really transitioned into being like completely documentary. How did you decide that that was like, I'm ready now. I want to take the stuff and I want to do the thing that I actually want to do.
[00:04:37] Speaker C: Well, I guess in the end of the day, it comes down to losing my dad. He died of cancer when I was 35.
And I remember waking up, I think it was the day after, and I just panic because I felt like I didn't have any pictures of him or us together and stuff like that. So I think that's where it really started. And I remember my first shoot after losing my dad. It was a granddad and his granddaughter. And it was the most beautiful. Like even today, eight years after, that's the one shoot that really sticks with me. To see the relation between the granddad and the kid and just like the pure love and how they kind of did things together. And I just, I think that sparked something within me. And then I was. Luckily I went to what's called way up north, like a wedding photographer conference.
And one of the speakers was Joshua de Haun from Belgium. She does like amazing documentary shoots, like the typical a day in life shoots. And it's just like, I think that's even made it bigger for me. Like, this is what I want to do and this is what means something to me. And I think working creatively, you have to love what you're doing.
And there has to be a meaning for why you do it, otherwise it will just be like a repeat session. And that's not what I want. I want people to have something that gives them the memories, the happiness, the love. That's where my why is.
[00:06:20] Speaker B: I guess that's really beautiful. And do you think it has to be documentary for you? Can your why exist in other genres? Or is it like it is documentary?
That makes it more real, do you know? Can you define what it is?
[00:06:36] Speaker C: I guess as long as I can see people for who they are, that is not me creating it for them, that is their relations that shines through, you know, like family. Documentaries has been a big thing in the States and in Europe for many years, but in Norway, I think it's quite a new thing. We have a lot of what we call lifestyle photographers, but there you still kind of interfere in some way, orchestra in some way what's going to happen. Whilst the documentary is more like you observe, you listen, you see what's going on and try to capture these moments in a new way. So maybe like in a way that the clients don't see themselves, even though it's just their everyday life. And I think that's what's so beautiful.
[00:07:33] Speaker B: Yeah, it does make a big difference. Because the way that I understand documentary photography is that you don't intervene at all. You just let it happen, happen.
[00:07:42] Speaker C: Like, I don't tell them what to wear or what to do. Of course, I will guide them and explain how a shoot would look, but still, like, it's their interactions, it's their relations, that's the main pedicure of the shoot.
[00:07:58] Speaker B: I imagine you would have to prepare them in a very specific way beforehand. Like, how can you be sure to get something that's. That's actually memorable and that looks the way that you want it to.
[00:08:14] Speaker C: Well, that's the amazing thing about documentary photography, because there's beauty in everything that we do. As long as there's love and relations. I think there's always beauty. Even in everyday situation. I say, even if it's sweat, blood and tears, it's still beautiful because it's, it's real. It's like for me, those pictures, they should tell the story of who this family is. And that's an all specter. Like, I love it when I come to a house where, you know, it doesn't have to be nice and neat and clean and it doesn't have to be a showroom, as long as it shows who they are, what I think.
[00:08:59] Speaker B: Of and what I've heard so many times when someone wants to book a photography session, especially when they want it in their house, it's like they're very preoccupied with it needing to be clean and tidy and like, where can we be? And where does it look nice enough, I would imagine, for you to get those kind of real photos where that stuff doesn't matter. Your clients would need to. It's like a whole different level of trust. They would. They would need to trust you to not only see it, but to document it. Like, how. How can you build that kind of trust?
[00:09:33] Speaker C: Well, first of all, I know for sure that I'm not the photographer for everyone. You know, like the customers that book a documentary session, they will know what a documentary session is. And we will always have like a meeting before where I explain what this shoot is about.
And I think communication is key and that's no matter what kind of shoot you do. So, like, you have to, like, I have to build up a relation to this family before so they will trust me and that it's okay however the house is or whatever they do. And if the kids misbehave, I just love it, you know, like, they don't have to be all smiley all the time. The mom doesn't have to go out and buy all new clothes for the whole family before recession. It's because that's just the outer part of it. The main thing is the relations between them and.
Yeah, the connection, what they do, the memories.
[00:10:34] Speaker B: Do you feel like there's a lot of you in the photos that you take? Do you feel like. Or is it mainly about them? Because, I mean, when we're out taking photos, it is about the way that we see things and the way that we want to angle things. But I imagine in a setting where everything is about your clients because you haven't really orchestrated anything.
So how do you think of that?
[00:11:00] Speaker C: Well, I think maybe that's also why these sessions are not like a 45 minutes to an hour session. These sessions are everything from three hours to 12 hours, depending on what the customer would like.
Yeah, you might be able to hold the mask for like an hour, but for three hours. They get used to me being a part of what's going on, you know, like they don't have to think about, oh, oh, she's there again kind of thing. Because my aim is to kind of blend in as much as I can. So it's not like I'm going to be the stranger in the corner not saying anything, you know, like, I will interact with the family, of course, like to build that trust and build the connection, but I won't tell them what to do or when to do or what to wear or anything like that. So I think the clue is to explain everything that this shoot is about before the actual shoot and reassure them that, you know, they will have beautiful pictures of themselves that it doesn't. It's not about the clothes, it's not about the room. It's about them.
[00:12:08] Speaker B: But do you feel like you have to tell a lot about you and your story for them to trust you? Do you tell them, like, how you became a photographer and why it means something to you? And why do you kind of talk about your. Why?
[00:12:22] Speaker C: Do you know what? That's probably one of the things that I should. I should myself practice on, because I know that, you know, it plays a role in how people see you.
I like to look at myself as quite easygoing person.
So I think the biggest thing that I do is to build that trust, to build the relation. But also, of course, like, my life and my memories also shapes me as a person. So in some way, that also reflects on how I see the families.
So I think maybe that's where I'm doing the trust building.
And then I'll work on the whole case of sharing my own stories.
[00:13:11] Speaker B: Yeah. Because I. I would just imagine that not everyone could take that role that you have. Not that everyone could be any kind of a photographer anyway, but I just feel like a documentary photographer. It's just so much more, like, undressed in a way. Like, you can't hide behind anything. You have to really know what you're doing.
[00:13:30] Speaker C: Yeah. Practice by doing is one of the things that I've learned over the years that how you meet people, the first initial contact, shapes a great deal of how the shoot will go.
[00:13:44] Speaker B: Right.
Do you think, in terms of your business, do you think it's different, or is it different now that you do more documentary versus, like, how you used to do it when it wasn't as documentary? Like, is there a different approach to marketing and a different approach to.
Yeah, I guess marketing specifically.
[00:14:03] Speaker C: But if you want to do documentary, you have to show documentary. And to reach the people that you want to work with, you also have to show the work that you want to do.
So that's where I market. But I think to realize that I'm not for everyone, but for my dream clients, I'm not the one. I can tell because, you know, it's been a transaction of going from the more typical portraits to documentary And I see now, like, my passion is so much more on the documentary. And when you're passionate something, you do a better job, I think, because you really want to do this. It gives, like, for me as a person to do documentary photography gives me something. It gives me a joy, it gives me happiness.
It makes me creative, it makes me want to do more.
So.
[00:15:03] Speaker B: Yeah, it's just interesting to hear how your thoughts are around it, because, I mean, all photographers have a different way of doing things.
There is just something about documentary photography that I think is so unique because it's very opposite to everything else, where everything's so more or less staged and planned and everything. And here you are doing something that's unscripted in a way. Yeah. And very real.
[00:15:33] Speaker C: I think maybe that's why I hope and think that maybe documentary will be a bigger thing, because for years now we have had so many filters and projects, this perfect living. Everyone has to be perfect. And now also, like the artificial intelligence, you know, like, you don't even know if what you looking at is real.
And to bring back the real feeling. I think Derek is a good thing.
[00:16:04] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think you're right. I do think that we need to kind of counter all the perfection that we see that are unattainable for all of us. Like, it's. That's not real life, and that's not necessarily what you want to remember years to come. Like how you wanted it to look versus how it actually was.
[00:16:25] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's.
[00:16:26] Speaker B: That's really interesting. Do you feel like you're more or less creative now that you're focusing on documentary photography?
[00:16:33] Speaker C: I think I'm creating in a different way.
[00:16:36] Speaker A: Okay, tell me more.
[00:16:40] Speaker C: I think any picture has a value, you know, like, no matter what picture you take, it's kind of documenting a situation. And, you know, like, it's been years now, especially in Norway, with the fine art portraits and stuff like that, and people being creative and like building a photo in that sense. But my creativity is more like the angles and how to capture something. How to emphasize the feeling of what's happening by using different techniques and to see different angles. Yeah. To observe the situation, how to make that situation look the way I want in the camera.
[00:17:23] Speaker B: Right.
[00:17:24] Speaker C: You know, like, in that sense. And I think in many ways it's a harder way of being creative because you don't know what the situation will bring.
[00:17:32] Speaker B: Yeah.
Some people think it's a little bit.
[00:17:37] Speaker A: Strange that I am a Norwegian. And then I'm doing these podcast episodes in English. Instead, and I completely understand, I definitely want to serve my Norwegian audience more. Especially because I see that it's about a 50% chance that if you're listening, you are a Norwegian, so why am I speaking in English?
While I don't have like the perfect answer to that, I do know that I want to do more stuff for my Norwegian audience. I've been talking about my beginners course that I've created for the Photographers Academy and next up is a membership. So definitely stay tuned for that. Go over to Instagram, you'll find me ngvilkolenes. That's INGV I L D K O L N E S where you can DM me if you have a question or you can check out my recent posts to see what's going on as well.
[00:18:36] Speaker B: What do you think is the most challenging, the hardest part about being a documentary photographer for you?
[00:18:44] Speaker C: For me, I think the hardest part is to slow down.
[00:18:48] Speaker A: Oh, really?
[00:18:48] Speaker C: You know, I like to take pictures and woo, it's happening. But with documentary, believe it or not, sometimes the clue is to slow down, see where you want to take the pictures, wait for the event to happen and kind of read the situation. I think that's my hardest part.
[00:19:09] Speaker B: That reminds me of I did an interview with Eva Roussa, the birth photographer, and she said something very similar. Like a lot of the time she just sits there reading her book and then, you know, she's just waiting for the right moment. And I think it's just so fascinating because I come from like a world of wedding photography where it's like, you know, so many things going on and you have to be pretty much everywhere at once. And this is so different.
[00:19:37] Speaker C: I think it is and it isn't, I think, because also in weddings, you know, I do the weddings as well, but still like more with the documentary approach to it. But it's a lot the same. As a wedding photographer, you have to learn to read the situation. You know, like when you have the experience of wedding photography, you know, kind of a little bit of what's gonna happen.
[00:19:59] Speaker B: Absolutely. Maybe it's because it's so much going on in so many different places that that's the feeling. It's just really overwhelming. Overwhelming. But maybe it's the same in a family photography session though, because you probably have multiple members of the family not necessarily doing the same thing. So there is a lot going on. I. Yeah, understand.
[00:20:20] Speaker C: I think that's where the creative thinking within documentary kind of happen to, you know, to see. Because it's not just the person that you're taking pictures of in documentary. It's also the environment, right. What's going on. It's so many things to think about. So yeah, to slow down is definitely something to.
[00:20:43] Speaker B: What it kind of boils down to then is just kind of finding the right moments, waiting for the right moments to be appear and being ready for that, thinking in a creative way and. And where you want to show up and maybe how to tell a story. Because there is a lot of storytelling, I would imagine. How do you approach that side of it?
[00:21:05] Speaker C: I think that's as well with the kind of longer sessions to learn the dynamics of the family and the relations, to try and capture like especially mum. Like they are often the ones that takes the pictures in the family event and all this. And then one day there's thousands of pictures of the family and maybe like two of the mum. I think to capture the real relations and also get those tender moments that are within a family. Especially with young kids, if they fall over and need to cuddle. Bedtime stories, the bar, like all these everyday events, that's just an everyday event for the family. But when you take a step back and look at from another angle and then you see like all this love between the family members and I think that's where the storytelling comes in.
[00:22:00] Speaker B: Right?
Yeah. Okay. So you don't necessarily think about it or plan in advance. You just show up and let it unfold.
[00:22:09] Speaker C: It's rather little I can plan a documentary session of what's happening. So yeah, I think that my aim is always to capture the family and their dynamics and tell their story of the day. And that's where I'm there for, like to show them the beauty of everyday life.
[00:22:30] Speaker B: Wow. Okay. It sounds challenging, but it also sounds very nice.
[00:22:36] Speaker C: It is. I love it.
[00:22:39] Speaker B: Do you think you have to have any special or specific skills, a specific mindset to be able to be a documentary photographer?
[00:22:49] Speaker C: I think you have to be curious. You have to like to meet new people, not feel awkward in kind of spending time in silent moments or when they don't quite know what they're going to do, to just be calm and be a part of it. I think it's. It's a clue. So yeah, I think you have like, of course you have to have like photographic skills as well, being able to take the pictures and like to change within speed and bad lighting conditions and stuff like that. But I think a great deal of the skills are the personal skills.
[00:23:28] Speaker B: Right.
[00:23:28] Speaker C: Of making the family relaxing, kind of enjoy the moment. If that Makes sense.
[00:23:33] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I would imagine that part of that work is upfront and part of it is also on the actual shooting day.
[00:23:43] Speaker C: Absolutely. And that's why, especially since I've been through a session between a more traditional photographer and documentary, for me, it's important to inform the clients of what this session is about, because if they expect, like, nicely post pictures, that's not what they're going to get.
[00:24:03] Speaker B: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
[00:24:05] Speaker C: Again, communication key.
[00:24:08] Speaker B: What about when it comes to business? Do you have any advice for photographers who are listening to the Sustainable Photography podcast, wanting to have a more sustainable business?
[00:24:20] Speaker C: I think believe in what you do, believe in yourself. And also, of course, have the right prices for what you do. Not at least, even though it's documentary and you don't build the whole set for the shoot, it doesn't mean that it's worth any less.
[00:24:35] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:36] Speaker C: And your type is still worth the same, so.
But it's hard sometimes. Like, I doubt myself billions of times. You know, like, what am I doing? But at the same time, when you look at what rewards you the most when you take pictures, I think then you know that this is what you're.
[00:24:54] Speaker B: Going to do because you've been speaking to the fact that you feel so much joy when you get to do this.
But when you do something as a job, having that sense of purpose can sometimes be lost to the fact that you need to make money, you need to get paid so that you can keep doing it. How can you kind of balance that so that you can kind of put up with the pressure? Because there is pressure and you want to do something meaningful. So how, how can you do that?
[00:25:29] Speaker C: But it's not pressure within any types of photography, I guess, like.
[00:25:34] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah. Not specifically to this, but just your perspective.
[00:25:39] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, it is hard. It is hard. But if you don't see the jobs coming in and all this, I think it's. It's down to being true to yourself in many ways. And I think maybe that's where I, if I so should say, hit the wall previously by doing more studio work, because I didn't feel any joy doing it. So I didn't earn much more money on that versus the documentary, but it just killed my creative joy or even like, joy kind of thing. So I think by doing what you love, you're going to do a good job.
[00:26:21] Speaker B: Right.
[00:26:22] Speaker C: So it's to focus and stay true to that. I think.
[00:26:25] Speaker B: I think you're right. I do think it really helps when you love it and I also think that trust part really comes in as well. That really plays a factor in this, because if you feel really, like, desperate, like, I need work now, it's going to be a lot harder than if you can just trust the fact that more work is going to come. So having that confidence, I do think it's important.
[00:26:51] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:26:53] Speaker B: What about in terms of you. Do you share your own documentary photos of your own life, of your own family as a matter, like, to connect with your families?
[00:27:07] Speaker C: Well, that's the thing. That's where, you know, sometimes you have the imposter syndrome of pretending. And, like, I guess the most important picture that I shared was picture of my dad and my brother before he passed, which was a true and very raw picture.
And a lot of my customers, unfortunately, contact me maybe when a family member is ill or something like that. And I wish people to take these pictures before. And also as a family, sometimes the dynamics are hard, and not being able to share it is also hard.
[00:27:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:27:47] Speaker C: And that's where I feel like I have to step up my game and also show my family, because I haven't done that.
[00:27:54] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah. Because I would imagine that that could make it easier for you to make people see who you are and that you're kind of taking your own advice to have your own photos.
[00:28:09] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:28:11] Speaker B: But I understand. Definitely understand. It's kind of like, for me, being a wedding photographer for, I don't know, 12 years and not being married myself, like, it's a bit like. Do you even know what you're talking about? I've had that feeling before. So I do think it helps if you can show the fact that, yeah, I think photos are an important part of my life. Here are real professional photos that I've had taken.
[00:28:36] Speaker C: Yeah. You know, because it's not like they haven't taken pictures of my family.
[00:28:41] Speaker B: No, no, I understand.
[00:28:43] Speaker C: But my kids are now 15 and 18, and you know how, like, the studio work killed my joy. I think maybe I killed their joy of darkness. Take a picture.
Yeah, it's. I will share.
[00:29:00] Speaker B: That's good. That's good. Would you say that there is a lesson that stands out to you? Like, this is the most important thing that I've learned as long as I've been a photographer that you can share with us.
[00:29:13] Speaker C: I think, as I said earlier, to be true to yourself.
Otherwise, I think if you don't do work that you enjoy and you don't work in a way that kind of gives you happiness, I think it's quite easy to hit that brick Wall really hard as a photographer. I guess a lot of us have been in the situation where you feel like you work and work and work and work without kind of earning the money or having the time to do the stuff that you really want to do or, you know, doing weddings. We spent half the summer at least away from our families. And that cost. It costs, yeah. The memories and the time spent with our families. I think that's the biggest learning curve to be true to myself, basically.
[00:30:09] Speaker B: Yeah, that is really, really important. And I'm also sure that there are some photographers listening who are really curious about documentary photography. Want to learn more about it, want to do more of it. Do you have any adv advice for them?
[00:30:24] Speaker C: I think, see if you like, there's several mentor programs, do courses to learn techniques, to have that in control and then practice if, you know, families with kids. Ask if you can take the pictures just to see if you like it or not. Like to. And to spend the time not to rush it. Like, if you do documentary, I think set at least off like three to five hours with the family and test and see if you like being that person that kind of lingers around and hang out with the family is my advice.
[00:31:00] Speaker B: Yeah, that's great advice. Yeah. Testing it before you go all in is probably a really good idea.
[00:31:06] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:31:07] Speaker B: And I just think that documentary photography really stands out in so many ways because maybe because here in Norway it's not as common, so photographers might think, like, is there really a market for this? Is it possible to do it? But it is because you're doing it. So I think it's just really important to.
To say that out loud that it is possible. People do want it.
And I think that the more people who offer it, the more people will want to book it as well. So I. I think that just creating that awareness of documentary photography is a real thing. It is possible to do it. I think it's just nice to say.
[00:31:49] Speaker C: Yeah. And I like the fact that we don't all have to be the same, you know, like, I think in Norway we're quite traditional, you know, like we have the newborn or one year old, we have the confirmation, we have the wedding and then maybe a generation photo kind of thing. But that customers now see that there are different ways of doing it, like either lifestyle documentary or going the other way and going fine art and having those kind of just taken. And I think it's really nice to see that there's a diversity also within the photography business in Norway. Yeah, we need it.
[00:32:29] Speaker B: Absolutely. And I think that it's so easy to think that everyone needs to be the same, and especially if you're newer as well. I remember when I was new, I was like looking at other photographers and being like, okay, so that's how it has to look. Thinking that there was like a right way of doing it. And whether you're a documentary photographer or you're not going back to what you've said a couple of times now, being true to your style and who you are, that is so important. And spending some time to figure out who that is and how you want to present yourself is really important.
[00:33:02] Speaker C: I spent years in a proper identity crisis, affairs. Oh, this is how it has to be. This is what I have to do. And then realizing that, no, it's not. But I guess also getting older also helps. Kind of seeing the world in a different way, I guess.
[00:33:19] Speaker B: I agree. But it's really, really nice to see that you've found who you want to be as a photographer because it does make it feel better and it makes it a lot easier to have your business as well, when you know you're not, in a way, you're not competing against anyone. You're just doing your own thing and attracting the people who want that.
[00:33:41] Speaker C: Absolutely. And I think you were talking about lessons to learn, and I think that's one of my lessons to kind of trust myself and my process, because I spend hours and hours comparing myself to everyone and no one kind of thing. That doesn't change who I am.
No, I should be me. I'm not, you know, so and so I'm good and this is my work.
[00:34:07] Speaker B: Absolutely.
So if someone feels really inspired now after listening to this, where can they find you to learn more about you and to see your beautiful photos?
[00:34:19] Speaker C: Well, I have an Instagram account which hopefully will be more active, so they can find me at Goel. No photographer, underline girl, etc. I guess you can put the link down below.
[00:34:32] Speaker B: I'll put the link in the show notes to your Instagram. Yeah.
[00:34:35] Speaker C: And then hopefully I will have a new website quite soon that will show more of the documentary style.
[00:34:42] Speaker B: Nice. We can also link to your new website and that's. Is it Guerill Satra?
Yeah.
[00:34:48] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:34:49] Speaker B: Okay, perfect. We'll link to those and just thank you so much for sharing. It's really inspiring to hear. I don't know, you feel like you've started out doing something that you liked and then you've just transitioned along with your life to find what you enjoy now because you don't have to do something forever just because you enjoyed it at one point. And I think that's really nice.
[00:35:10] Speaker C: Yeah. Thank you for having me. It was lovely.
[00:35:12] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:35:16] Speaker A: You just listened to an episode of Sustainable Photography. Please share this episode with a photographer you you care about.
