[Replay] Boost your sales with in-person sales

[00:00:00] Speaker A: July is such a great time to relax, catch up on things, and not have anything scheduled. So the podcast is airing reruns of episodes that you might have missed. The ads might not be completely relevant in terms of dates, but if you want to know how I can help you, you can always dm Megwilkolnis on Instagram that's Ingvild Kolnese. Or go to engvilcolonist.com waitlist and sign up there to be the first to know what's happening. I don't have any experience doing in person sales. I've always focused on getting the bookings and selling files. And according to my guest today, Lucy Dumas, I've really been missing out and I'm curious to hear what she has to teach us about in person sales. You're listening to sustainable photography, a podcast all about business tips, inspiration and confidence building. I'm Inguil Kolnas, the host of this podcast, and after over a decade as a photographer, I now help talented photographers run sustainable businesses. And for full transparency, you should know that I'm a mentor with paid offers, and I will probably mention some of those in in this episode. Lucy Dumas, known as the baby whisperer, had been a family and wedding photographer for 40 years, and she sells three to eight wall portraits and albums to almost every client. She also coaches photographers through the profitable photographer and loves supporting people in creating the business of their dreams, or those who just want to make a great business even more successful. She shares her own knowledge on the popular podcast the profitable photographer with Lucy Dumas, which of course, you need to go check out as well. [00:01:57] Speaker B: Hi Lucy. Welcome to sustainable photography. [00:02:00] Speaker C: Hello. It's good to chat with you again. [00:02:04] Speaker B: Yeah, I know. I had such a good time on your podcast, and now I can't wait to hear more about what you do. [00:02:10] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. I wish you were closer so we could just hang out. [00:02:13] Speaker B: I know that would be so much better, but you're not. So can you tell us a bit about who you are and where you live and how you ended up as both a photographer and also a podcast host? [00:02:23] Speaker C: Thank you for asking. So I live in San Diego, which is a really awesome place to live, and I've been a full time portrait photographer for 40 years. No rich husband, no inheritance, just grinding away, finding clients, photographing, and learning how to sell. About nine years ago, I started doing business coaching for photographers. I've always been a mentor. It's just my nature. Whether you want to know how to pick out a good pomegranate or not, I might jump in at the grocery store and tell you. So the universe conspired to tell me it's time for you to really dig in and coach. And then through that process, I discovered that when I was on other people's shows, it was a great way to share my message. And then a mentor said, lucy, you need to have a show because your voice, someone that's been around a long time, especially a woman, people need to hear from you. And so I did that, and I'm on episode, I think 210 June is my four year anniversary and people can find it. The profitable photographer with Lucy Dumas. And episodes are also on YouTube, so people that like to see, like, your pretty face with all that beautiful sparkly eyes and skin can go to the youtubeys. So that's my story. I started in weddings. So I've talked twelve years of knowledge and experience and success in weddings and then children. I was doing babies before it was popular because this used to be a man's world and they were not necessarily drawn to let's photograph newborns and toddlers. But I always loved kids. And so then I transitioned from weddings to kids. And just a little note on that is when I started, somebody told me that if I picked a specialty, I would be more successful more quickly. And because I used to love weddings and kids, but I could see that with weddings, there's built in clients and there's such easy networking with other vendors. So I went all in on the weddingse and got to the top of the food chain pretty quickly in my community and then eventually did my other love, which is the babes and the kids and such. And so. And now I'm helping others. [00:05:15] Speaker B: That's really nice. [00:05:16] Speaker C: So that's my story. [00:05:18] Speaker B: Yeah. So I always start by asking my guest what they consider a sustainable business is like, what is it to you? Can you give any insight on your views on sustainability? [00:05:31] Speaker C: Sustainability. So can you define sustainability a little bit so I can go in the direction? [00:05:40] Speaker B: Well, basically what you think it takes to run a sustainable and successful photography business. [00:05:47] Speaker C: Okay, got it. So we start out, a lot of us wanting to photograph and not having a lot of either desire or knowledge of how to run a business. And so in order to sustain any business, we have to know how to sell, how to market, have all those things in place, continually grow. I think part of why I've been able to stay in this industry for now, 41 years is I'm always learning. A lot of my pals at this point in their life, they're not like, okay, now let's start something brand new. But that's just my nature. So continuing to reinvent and to keep not letting misfortunes be an excuse. I've sustained my business through six recessions, and what I've always been able to do, and part of it is because I surround myself by other people who are also positive and work hard. And I'm a lifelong learner. So what I always do is I use that extra time when there's a slowdown to grow, to learn to market better, to sell better, to upgrade my branding and think of new ways to get ideal clients. So then when the recession's over and all of the other people who've cut down their budget on marketing and all of these things, they're no longer in the business. So there's less competition, but I'm at a higher success level, higher dollars, my marketing, everything is better. So then every recession has actually been a step up. [00:07:45] Speaker B: Wow. Okay. [00:07:47] Speaker C: Do you know the story of the mule that fell in a well? [00:07:50] Speaker B: No. [00:07:51] Speaker C: Okay. So this farmer heard his precious mule, Bessie, you know, crying out on his farm, and he realized she'd fallen into a well. And all the neighbors were like, there's no way to get that animal out of there. And so they all said, let's just bury her. So they all start shoveling. And what Emil does is he shakes it off and steps up, and they shovel more. And so eventually he just walks right out. So using adversity as a way to step up. [00:08:28] Speaker B: Wow. Okay. That's really inspiring. So a few weeks ago, I was on your podcast, and we were talking about what you do, which is in person sales, and it's not something that I have a lot of experience with, but your way of doing it was really inspiring. So can you tell us more about how you do in person sales, like, part of your process and why you think it's the way to do things? [00:08:54] Speaker C: Sure. So, in an industry like ours, if we're not doing high volume and that takes its own kind of system, and there are high volume studios that also do in person sales. But industry, if we want to be providing high quality, build relationships with clients, get the maximum dollar, and for them to be maximum happy, that's a new term I just made up, being what I call the trusted advisor. Helping people from the very beginning to collaborate with us and for us to plant seeds for future purchases is a favor to them, and it helps our bottom line. And some people will be like, I don't have time for in person sales. Well, I can make the same income from one client that I, from the start, have a phone call and an in person meeting. And I photograph in a way that I know I'll have plenty of things for them to purchase as art on their walls and albums and so forth. And then the sitting with them in person. After all of that and having a system, I use a projector. I have a big movie screen. I have big whiteboards in all sizes that I might be showing them the art. And I use those to hold a board up in front, let's say a 30 by 40. And when they see it physically, visually, they always go, oh, oh. And then they start thinking of, like, where could I put that in my house? And I hope I can afford that. But I've been guiding them all the way through. There's a reason there are salespeople, and there's also a reason why salespeople are often the most highly paid people in any industry. Because when we help people, when we give them our time and our talents and our expertise, we're rewarded. You know, I was in the mall, can't remember why, and I walked into a jewelry store that I like their jewelry, and right away, the woman, hi, how are you? Have you been here before? Yes. You know, chitchat, get to know each other. Are you looking for anything special? No, I just always like to look at rings, and she was there to help me. And when I was like, oh, I'd like to try that one on, she was like, that's a such and such. And the artist, she usually uses those things. And so this ring that I saw in the case began to feel like more than a ring. And there was also part of me that would be like, if I was going to buy a ring here, I would be sure to buy it from her because she showed an interest. So there's, that relationship is powerful. Now, I've been in Costco. Do you have Costco's where you live? [00:12:11] Speaker B: No, we don't. [00:12:12] Speaker C: Okay, so it's a big warehouse, and they do have, they do sell jewelry. And, you know, you're in the middle of this big industrial building, and there's jewelry. Well, to me, that's very much like you've got digital files that are just sent over to you, or you've got what I call post and pray, which is a gallery that we post, and we pray that the person will be able to figure out what they want and buy a lot. And there's no experience, there's no guidance, there's no meaning behind it. It's just a thing. [00:12:47] Speaker B: So do you tell them, like, your philosophy? How do you guide them? [00:12:52] Speaker C: So when I'm teaching somebody my sales process, the first thing we do is, first of all, we talk about that trusted advisor relationship. And from the first phone call and even before, if you go to a website and it feels like this person is, this photographer is trustworthy, you like their work. They seem like somebody you would enjoy working with. They seem like quality, you know, that starts to get the ball rolling. So there's like these steps in the phone call where we make small talk, and then we get to know them better, ask some deeper questions. We start to plant the seeds for the potential purchase, ask about their home or if it's a wedding, you know, we start talking about, like, I would share about how when I photograph a day, I'm always picturing that finished album, that when they sit down and go through it, they will be able to relive over and over and over again their wedding. I tell them about, I've been divorced twice, but I still treasure those albums because my grandparents are in it, my dad is in it, my niece that was little is in it, and now she's a grandmother. And then in that case, I would drop the thought of, and I know that most people who have their digital photographs, number one, they never get a finished album done in archival materials, and they may not even be able to find those files. They get corrupt, they get lost. So I start to create the desire on the phone call. [00:14:39] Speaker B: So before they've even booked you, you start this? [00:14:42] Speaker C: Absolutely. That's how I get them to book me. And if they're really just in it, you know, if that is not what eventually they see the value in, then I'm happy to let them go. And so the other kind of question that you asked me is why? I think it's important, and I already touched on that. But I think photographs are one of the most important things we can own. And beautiful photographs on display in our homes that we see day after day after day. There's so many reasons they're valuable. So, like, for example, down on the floor, if you were watching this on video, there's a portrait of my niece and her baby. So my niece, niece, that was the little girl. Her daughter and her daughter's baby are in my home. They live far away, but I get to feel that love and that connection over and over again. And also, that little dude is now three years old. So I get to remember that squishy little baby that you want to chew on. I've had situations where the portraits in people's homes have been a self esteem builder for the child. I know that parents who, you know, kids are frustrating, right? And sometimes we just want to put them out on someone else's doorstep and run away. But then when you look at that picture of that beautiful essence of the angel child in your home, you remember that you love them and it's worth all the effort, and kids feel more part of a family. So that's part of why I think it's valuable. And then in the studio, when it's time for them to purchase, they only see them with me. They don't get to see them any other way and only that one time. So I do like a little movie premiere where we sit down and the lights go down and music starts and they see kind of a best of maybe 50 images put to music. And they laugh and they cry. Emotion sells. And then we go through and sort them. So I do a yes no maybe just to take out, you know, like scoot some away. And then I compare ones that are similar and I always leave in more than I know they're going to want. Why do you think that is? Inkville? [00:17:28] Speaker B: Maybe so that, I don't know why. [00:17:33] Speaker C: Because they're going to take out something. So if I show them 70 and there's 40 that I want to have in the book, they're going to narrow down to that 40, but if I show them 40, they're going to narrow down to 20. [00:17:47] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:17:48] Speaker C: And a lot of beautiful images will never see the light of day. [00:17:52] Speaker B: Oh, wow. Okay, so you've really thought this through. [00:17:57] Speaker C: Yeah, well, 40 years of practice and I never show them anything, that if they liked it and wanted to purchase it, I'd be like, ah, yeah, yeah, no, but like, if there's two images that are similar but with a slight difference, I'll leave them both in, even though I know which one is the best. [00:18:19] Speaker B: Okay, interesting. So you. But you help them and guide them to which one. [00:18:23] Speaker C: You think it's all about help and guidance. [00:18:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:26] Speaker C: So I like to, when I'm teaching and coaching, do this exercise where I'm like, okay, Inkveld, here's a red pen. Do you want a red pen, yes or no? And you might say yes. You might say no if I say I have a red pen, a blue pin and a green pen, which would you like? You might say, well, I like the. [00:18:49] Speaker B: Red and green and I want the green one. [00:18:52] Speaker C: Yeah. So there's more likelihood that even if I'd said here's a green pen, and you like greenhouse. It's a yes or no. But if there's choices, then people will choose. So narrowing it down, it also gives people the time to fall in love with the images over and over again. And then one of my secrets that I discovered that was just like, oh, my gosh, this makes the biggest difference is then we place them in the highest potential categories. So would this be a beautiful wall portrait? I don't care if you didn't originally think you wanted a wall portrait of your little girl and your dog, but that picture would be beautiful as a wall portrait or whatever it is. So. [00:19:43] Speaker B: But you have already thought, which you think these would be great for the wall? No. Okay. [00:19:47] Speaker C: No, I'm participating. I'm letting my emotional reactions and watching theirs be the guide to help them. So we separate into three categories. So is this suitable for wall? Would this only be a tabletop, or would this only go in an album? Then this is the like when I did this again, when I. I don't know where I came up with this, or maybe somebody taught me. Maybe I thought of it in a dream. I don't know. So now I have a slideshow of just the wall group, and we run through it twice, and I say, and people are, pull your car over and write this down. So we've been doing a lot of thinking, and we're going to go back to our initial emotional reactions to these images. I want you to notice which ones, plural? Touch your heart or give you, like, an amazing feeling. And you'll notice when we run through it the second time, you're going to have that same feeling. Okay, here's the money word. So if you purchase those as art for your home, that's what you're going to feel every single day for the rest of your life. [00:21:04] Speaker B: Wow. Okay. That's powerful. [00:21:09] Speaker C: So some people call it future pacing. It's like I'm now putting them in their home and getting them to project that as they're living in their home with this portrait, or as they're looking through their album, imagining how good that's going to feel. [00:21:31] Speaker B: Yeah, because it's all about feelings. [00:21:34] Speaker C: It's all. What we're selling is emotion and beauty. There are images that we take that people would love, that don't know the people that were photographing. A friend of mine is in Italy right now, and she went to the Uffizi gallery, and she posted a couple of paintings that when I was there in my twenties, standing in front of those paintings of people. One was Venus and there were some other ones. It was a life changing moment, looking at these. And so our work can have that potential with strangers. Yes. But then when it's your family or it's your love story or it's you. I'm a big advocate of people being photographed individually, celebrating ourselves, being able to see a portrait of ourselves that remind us that we're amazing and beautiful and special, even when we don't feel that way. You know, I don't know about you sometimes. I don't feel that way. [00:22:48] Speaker B: Yeah, same. [00:22:50] Speaker C: And none of this is going to happen when people are either given digital files or we do an online gallery. [00:23:00] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. [00:23:03] Speaker C: In the process, I'm also elevating that portrait in their mind by using terms that are about fine art, design terms like, I might say, if we're down to a few, I might say, well, I think this one would be best for your home, for the fireplace, let's say. Because in addition to the emotional impact, it has beautiful design elements. It's got this s curve and the way that you can enter on the bottom left, that foot leads you up to this, that then you see the baby space and the way the trees arch around. And so people are like, how do you help people see the value of what you do? I'm not saying this is beautiful art and it's valuable. I'm telling them I'm painting the story. And also something that I do is I have the boards in different shapes, because there might be an image that is nice in horizontal, but when you put it in a square, which square evokes emotion. As humans, we see a square as love and harmony and emotion all of a sudden just pops or something might be amazing and tall and skinny or super panorama. So those kinds of things, I can guide people to the right shape, the right composition, and then also they know when they select something as art, then I'm spending extra time perfecting it. I don't have time. Let's say I was going to deliver 100 digital files. I am not going to take a tree branch out that looks weird or just all the things burn and dodge and all of those custom items. But when they're investing thousands in art, then either I or a digital artist that I might hire is going to refine them. What are your thoughts on all of this? Like, why it's working and why I love helping people do this. [00:25:17] Speaker B: I think the way you're presenting it, it makes it all about them. It's got nothing to do with you, really. It's about what can you do to give these clients what they really want and to treasure really what they already have, because that seems like what it's all about. And you're also doing it very custom because you're bringing in their home. I remember last time you mentioned how you helped someone to decide on wall portraits for their entire home because you're being their guide. You're helping them to figure out how things can be. They don't have to do all the imagination themselves, which they would have to be if you weren't there, but you're kind of presenting it to them. [00:26:03] Speaker C: Exactly. And there's so much more potential than people who don't have the experience can see from images. I've done a class where I had the attendees bring a thumb drive with like 15 images from one session, and then I've sold them back to them. And they've been amazed at the things that I thought up and what it looked like. Know people that had never seen their work 50 inches tall and on the boards and cropped a little here or there. So even experienced photographers who don't sell in this way might not fully see what they've captured. [00:26:48] Speaker B: Exactly. So how long, if you do, or when you do these kinds of sessions, how long do they take? [00:26:55] Speaker C: It can be 3 hours. Yeah, but I just tell them to just relax. I'm going to be their guide. Just tell me yes, no, and maybe, and then we'll get to decisions. No pressure, please. Don't have a dinner date or some other thing you have to do, because if we get almost there, but we don't conclude it, if you were to come back, we're starting all over. [00:27:19] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. So they make the decisions then and there. [00:27:23] Speaker C: Yes. Yeah. [00:27:25] Speaker A: Sign up to the mini course. Create your best year yet. We did around last year, and it. [00:27:32] Speaker B: Was such a success. [00:27:33] Speaker A: And I've been loving getting feedback throughout the year from photographers who had reached some of their goals and done things that they otherwise probably wouldn't do. And if you want that to be you next year, do sign up. Up to the mini course. Create your best year. Tickets are only $47, and I'm pretty sure we're gonna sell out, so you don't want to miss it. Go to engelcolones.com bestyear to sign up and get your ticket. [00:28:05] Speaker C: So the photographer's benefit, even if someone was photographing only for free for a charity organization, there would still be value to the photographer, because when you see your work big and you hear the reactions, you grow in confidence you learn what people love. To me, the best, most fun part of the whole thing is sitting down with people and enjoying the show with them and learning what I've done to be successful. To me, it almost breaks my heart when I think that there's probably millions of photographers around the world who work their hearts out and then send off the files and get no response or get, oh, these are nice. And it's just so powerful when you sit with people and enjoy their enjoyment of them. It's the fun of it. [00:29:14] Speaker B: Yeah. You make it sound really empowering, and you're making me want to. [00:29:20] Speaker C: I can help you with that. [00:29:24] Speaker B: But my clients are mainly, like, on the other side of the world. Can I still do this, then? [00:29:29] Speaker C: Absolutely. [00:29:30] Speaker B: Okay. [00:29:31] Speaker C: Yeah. Lie there. So, in San Diego, we have people. I have a lot of clients that are from around the world, and they're usually, when they're coming all the way here, they're not just here for a weekend. Right. So very often I've suggested we do the portrait at the beginning of their vacation, or let's say it was an elopement or something, that we plan it. So it's early, and then a few days later, we get together and have the show, and they order, because if they're making their way here, they're going to be here for a while. Most of the time, I have traveled to people's homes on airplanes. I've flown with my projector, and if there's an art store, I'll buy my big foam boards. Excuse me, while I'm in town. And then I project that. I pop it onto, like, the back of a chair. I'll get a 30 by 40 or 40 40 and do my show. And then I can still show them everything as if it's finished art. [00:30:44] Speaker B: So you bring, like, samples of albums and frames and stuff as well? [00:30:49] Speaker C: No, because an album, I can show them, you know, here's the albums I use that I like. Here's the colors, here's the fonts. What do you want? I'm selling the imagery you're selling. [00:31:01] Speaker B: Okay. [00:31:01] Speaker C: And when I, you know, with COVID a lot of frame companies have gone out of business, but the ones that I use are still online, so I can pull them up online and I even pop in the photograph. But I don't include framing initially, because I want them to buy the most number of wall portraits they can budget for that day, and then later, they budget for the framing. [00:31:30] Speaker B: Oh, so you separate them. [00:31:31] Speaker C: Keep it separate. [00:31:33] Speaker B: Okay. Okay. [00:31:34] Speaker C: So there was one other little piece of that a lot of people will be like, oh, I'm going to use my television instead of a projector. How big of a television would you need to be able to have it vertically? 60 inches. It'd have to be like 20ft wide. So with a projector, you can show it tall or as wide as the room allows. Or you could put a sheet in the backyard over a fence, show them a 20 foot piece of art. So even though when I've traveled, most of people have big, smart tvs I could just plug into, I still go bring the big boards because I want them mostly, if you're doing the average big tv, people will be able to sell about a 20 by 24. And that is not something you go over the fireplace. [00:32:34] Speaker B: Yeah. So it's about, you need to show it to sell it, basically. [00:32:39] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. My average sales range from 3000 to eight. I've had up to 30,000. And that would never have happened with digitals or the post and pre. Just wouldn't. [00:32:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I understand. But when, when you do this or when you've taught other people to do this, are there some common objections that photographers get to hear from their clients or potential clients before they've even booked? How can you address them in a good way? [00:33:13] Speaker C: Yeah. Okay. Oh, I remembered. So when I fly somewhere to photograph, I allow a couple extra days and then I edit, and then I go back to their home and sell while I'm in town. In a pinch, you could do a zoom, but it is not as impactful. You can't control the color. You also can't control them. Spring shooting and stealing some things, most people won't do that, but, you know, there's ways to make that better. But my system and showing it big, it's powerful. When I have families that come, like for a family reunion kind of thing, then I take my projector and my screen to the house they rented, and we have a little party. And so with the big family groups, we have the show, we narrow down a little, and then each individual family, let's say it's mom and dad and their kids and their grandkids. So then each of the kids will have time with me one on one to help make their choices. [00:34:17] Speaker B: Oh, wow. [00:34:18] Speaker C: Those are the big bucks. Than selling to multiple multi generation families. [00:34:26] Speaker B: Yeah. Would you say that your clients are more affluent than average, or are they normal people? [00:34:34] Speaker C: So one thing that's important is to figure out what our target client is. So my target client that I market directly to hashem, first of all, the people that enjoy experiences that would be more apt to go to a nice restaurant with a chef and where the maitre d gets to know their name. Boutiques. People that are not living paycheck to paycheck, people that might have, let's say, three, $4,000 a month that they could just splurge on anything they want, and it doesn't impact their overall, say, fit in for retirement, paying their bills, the house, and so forth. So, yes, definitely. Now, the upper upper, I've found, are not my ideal clients. I don't completely understand the psychology of that, but I don't always know. Like, I'm sure I've had amazingly wealthy people that I've worked for, but I don't ask that. [00:35:38] Speaker B: Yeah, no. [00:35:39] Speaker C: One time, my neighbor, because I'm not big on cars, my neighbor said, people drive up with the most amazing cars and then come into your house, like, cars that are $100,000 and more. And I don't even know what those are. I had a lot of Land Rovers, the really expensive ones, and I was in one group of moms that was in the ideal neighborhood that all friends and they all love, those fancy Land Rovers. [00:36:13] Speaker B: Well, it's interesting. Yeah, it's interesting. [00:36:16] Speaker C: So. And, yes, there are people who are not affluent or upper middle who have paid me $500 a month until it's paid off because they love it and they want it so bad. And there are people who've sent, well, I guess we won't take that vacation this summer. We'll buy these portraits instead. [00:36:37] Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah. Cause they value that. [00:36:40] Speaker C: Right, right. And they value it. People don't show up saying, I want a bunch of wall portraits, and I'm gonna give you $8,000. They have a desire, or, I've attracted them in some way to initially start the process, and then through the step by step process, I create the desire. [00:37:01] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay, interesting. So, interesting. [00:37:05] Speaker C: So, pivoting to objections. [00:37:07] Speaker B: Objections, yeah. So some common objections that you must hear. I mean, both you and the people that you coach, they must hear all kinds of things. So do you have any you can share with us or some ways to address them? [00:37:21] Speaker C: Yes. So, overall, the first thing when I can remember to do this, because I don't always, is to ask a question before I respond. So, for example, someone says, do you sell just digitals? Instead of saying, no, I'm a full service one, and I want people to enjoy these, and I've got this expertise, and it's worth it, and I can't afford to. If you're going to buy the cow. How can I sell you the milk? I don't go into that. I ask why. So what would be a why? If I said, ingvelt, why are you asking that question? Why would you want them? [00:38:06] Speaker B: Because then I can, I don't know, save money or look at them on my phone. [00:38:13] Speaker C: Okay, so we'll go with the save money. So then my response to that is, if I sold the digitals, in no way would it be the most economical way to work with me or have photographs. My pricing, if I were to sell you digitals, would have to be extremely high, because, well, just right there, I don't have to explain why. And if they're like, why? Because there's potential. I've had people spend $15,000 on portraits. You know, that may not be you, but every session, people purchase what they love, and they don't have to invest in images that they're really not that interested in. So if they said I wanted to share with friends and family, then I say, you know, anything that you purchase is art. I'm happy to post on my Facebook and tag you, and then you can share that with your friends and family. The third one might be archival, and in that case, I can work with people for things that they purchase, that there might be a fee for them to then add on the edited images for archives. I probably, if it was initial phone call, I'd say I do have an option for that. However, my goal, my purpose in life, is creating art and albums that you're going to enjoy every day. And, you know, digitals, if I sell them, they're a secondary decision, secondary project. Okay. So a lot of times, they'll say, so we're in the sales room. I've done the slideshow. They're, like, overwhelmed, because there's so many they love. And then they'll say something like, can I purchase more later? So if I ask you, Ingvelt, why are you asking me that question? Can you think of a reason they've asked that? [00:40:16] Speaker B: Because I can't make up my mind, and I don't want to. Yeah. [00:40:19] Speaker C: So now I know what their concern is, so then I can answer that. And in that case, and I get that all the time. I have a process where we're going to step by step, narrow down to the best, and then we're going to spend some time looking at them, thinking about your home, your decor, the right sizes, and just relax. And trust me, by the end of our time together, we'll have helped you make amazing decisions. You're going to absolutely love. [00:40:53] Speaker B: Yeah. And that's why you ask why? So that you can address it with the right reply. [00:40:59] Speaker C: Right. Often they'll say, well, because right now I know I'm going to want a lot more, but money wise I don't have it right now. So my first answer is, well, the truth is, and this is the truth, almost nobody in my 40 years has come back and purchased more because it's out of sight, out of mind. [00:41:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:22] Speaker C: So my suggestion is that we decide what you love, what you really, really want and then we'll figure out a payment plan or like you don't necessarily need to have the full amount today. It does take me eight to twelve weeks to complete your order, depending on what you're ordering. So we could do half now, half later or a third, a third, a third. And then they go, oh, okay. [00:41:53] Speaker B: Yeah. Because you've listened to what they say is their problem and you're really flexible and reassuring them that it's going to be okay. [00:42:01] Speaker C: Right, right. And then the third part of the answer to can I order more later? Because money wise, right now it's a challenge. Another response from that is you're going to get your best value by ordering everything now. So most people never come back, but if you did, you'd be paying full price. As we're putting together a package, there might be some little bonuses or things that I can put together depending on what else you order. So financially your best bet is to select everything now. [00:42:43] Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah. [00:42:45] Speaker C: So what's another big objection you could think of? [00:42:49] Speaker B: What about if they're just worried that they're not choosing the best ones because they're like me, I would like to take my time and like, oh, I'm not sure. And what about if something like that is their objection? [00:43:03] Speaker C: So in this process, you're going to have lots of time and I'm right here with you helping you choose and I'm gauging your emotional reactions. So, like if we get down to it and there's two and you can't decide, I'm remembering which one you went. I love that. Oh, I love that one. But in the event that you select something and you live with it for six months and you've got a smaller one and you wish to exchange, I'm perfectly happy to take that one back and use it as a studio sample and replace it, or if it's too small or it's too big or, you know, I give them that awareness that they need to live with it for a period of time so that it's not just instant and whenever it does come back. [00:43:59] Speaker B: Yeah. Because you've reassured them that it's okay. Because it's mainly, again, it's about their feelings, it's about their worries and you just reassuring them and letting them know that everything's okay. Because once people have made up their mind, it's very rare that they decide otherwise later. [00:44:17] Speaker C: Right, right. And just like I'm thinking about if you are going to a special occasion and you wanted a beautiful dress that you look great in, and you go to, I don't know what kind of discount stores you might have, but here we have, like, TJ Maxx and Nordstrom Rack and places that get remaindered, and it's cluttered and it's messy and the floors don't have carpet. Or if they do, their gross carpet and you're in these horrible dressing rooms trying to pick out a beautiful dress, or you go to a boutique where they have beautiful dresses. Yes, they're more expensive, but there's someone there that can even say, you know, for your coloring and your body type. Let me pull some and see what you think. And then they're there, and they have beautiful mirrors. And when you come out, they may be like, well, that color is good on you, but I think the fit right here isn't ideal for you. That other one, you know, it really brings out the color of your eyes and shows off. I have good shoulders. Shows off your great shoulders. And so then you leave confident. Right. That you've made the right decision. Where I've done, even at nicer stores, but that don't have that same personal stuff, I've taken a pile of clothes home and tried them on and looked at them and thought about them and then returned everything. But if it's like, let's say I need one beautiful dress. So having a guide, having a trusted advisor, it all comes down to that. Trusted advisor. So when I create that relationship, then if they're trying to decide or if I'm handling objections, they trust me. So that when I say, let's go ahead and pick out what you love now I can tell them what to do, and there's a good chance, and I'm telling them because it's in their best interest, there's a good chance they'll trust me in that and they'll follow my lead. [00:46:32] Speaker B: Do you think this would be possible if you hadn't kind of built a relationship and trust with them beforehand? Because, I mean, you meet with your clients even, like, before you've done the session. So how important do you think the way you portray yourself is in this whole process? [00:46:50] Speaker C: I think it's very, very important because I'm thinking about. I did not buy either of those rings, but I'm thinking about it. Right. [00:46:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:47:01] Speaker C: I purchased a high end latex bed, and there were three stores in town that carried the same products, and one of them was a disgusting, noisy mess with no good service at all. The woman. I'm laying on the bed, and a woman takes a call from her grandmother and is yakking away and leaves the room while I'm laying on the bed. And the place is cluttered and yucky and gross, but I'm sure that the mattress would be fine, because it's probably coming from a factory directly to me. The other one was medium, okay, but the third one, the decor, the relationship, the way that she listened. I'm the princess in the pea, and if I'm not comfortable, I cannot sleep. If it's too soft or too hard or the three bears. And I trusted her so much and felt so heard and this lovely environment. And, yeah, I don't know if I would have pulled the trigger if it had been, let's say, just a showroom with no one in there until I decided to purchase. So I think even if most of my clients are coming from out of town, I would have a Zoom call, and I would have them send me photographs of the interior of their home and wall spaces, and I would do a little magic so they could see some art before at the consultation. But that first phone call is the start of everything. [00:48:34] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:48:35] Speaker C: It also avoids misunderstandings. It also, you know, when I'm doing a consultation, I'm helping them pick clothing that looks good in the environment. With kids, I've got, like, eight tips on how to prepare them so that they're not hungry or uncomfortable or angry or scared or other things. That's another talk I give about a photographing children is the stages and the eight needs the kids have that we can address. So another, and I know we're almost out of time, another big objection is often I don't have wall space. And with that one, sometimes I'm like, well, what keeps your roof up? And so I have ways to help them see that. Maybe they could put an easel in a corner. Maybe there's a painting of a fish that their grandfather did that they can move somewhere else. So that's part of the design process. I'm creating furniture for their home. That's my picture or with albums, family heirlooms. [00:49:48] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. But what about. Because the process doesn't start when they get in touch with you. It's a matter of marketing and your website and social media and stuff as well. Do you think about objections already then, like on your website and stuff, or is it only when they arise? [00:50:07] Speaker C: So on a website, I just want them to go, wow. And, oh, she seems like somebody that would be great. I connect with her and I want to call her. I don't explain a lot. I don't get a lot of words. I'm big on thinking up pain points and addressing them. Now, if you go to either of my websites, lucydumas.com or lucy dumascoaching.com, comma Lucy with an eye, you might be able to see things that aren't that because I've created those. And just in the last maybe two years, I've really began to understand that any words that come out of our mouth or are printed when they're helping people understand that I can relieve a problem they have or concern they have, how powerful that is. So there's a book called story brand, I think. [00:51:08] Speaker B: Oh, I love that. [00:51:09] Speaker C: Yeah, it addresses that. So I haven't updated my photography website in a long time. I'm now actually doing a whole revamp on my Lucy Dumas coaching that's going to be purdy, but it does address pain points. Yeah. So, yeah, I don't want people to go to a website, think they know everything and be like, okay, good. I'll have to remember to call her or I want to be like, but I want to know more about this. I want to know the pricing. I don't put pricing on because unless I were getting so many inquiries that it was taking up way too much time and only a 10th of the people were qualified. Unless I have that going on, I don't want to put pricing. I want to look like I'm probably expensive, worth it. But I don't need to pre qualify people with a dollar. [00:52:10] Speaker B: I understand. So what advice would you give photographers who want to improve their sales skills and their, objection. Handling skills, but they might be feeling overwhelmed or finding it difficult to get started in a way. [00:52:28] Speaker C: Yeah. Well, of course, obviously, I think getting help hiring somebody or booking, you know, like, I have an online course that's just my step by step sales course. That was a recording of a six month group coaching on that topic. And so, you know, education, wherever you can get the education and do it, practice it, get some old photos that you have and get a couple friends over and have them pretend and go through step by step system. You know, it's all, there's experience and there's education. And the more you do something, the more comfortable and confident you'll be. And it all starts again. You did pick up on this with the heart for service. You know, when we're like, oh, I don't want to do that. I'm scared. I have imposter syndrome. I don't like to sell the all of that. That's about us. [00:53:31] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. [00:53:32] Speaker C: But if we're like, I want to help people. And photographs I've had recently, a few clients come back that it's been years, decades since we worked together, telling me that their investment in these portraits was the best investment they've made in the last 25 years. And that's not about Lucy Dumas. That's about the family that they love. We have an unfair advantage because we're selling them themselves. So when we create an experience where we hold their hand and we help them get to enjoy themselves, the maximum, it's a gift. And the money. Now you need to learn also how to price yourself. You need to learn marketing, all of that simple kind of thing. [00:54:23] Speaker B: But no, there are many pieces. [00:54:26] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. [00:54:28] Speaker B: So if you could recommend something to build a sustainable business, what would that be? [00:54:33] Speaker C: Hire a coach. [00:54:39] Speaker B: Pretty straightforward. Yep. [00:54:40] Speaker C: Yeah. And also join local and state and national organizations. Like in America. It's the professional photographers of America. I would not have had a 40 year career without my local professional photographers of San Diego county, my state, and being involved in going to conventions. You know, go to conventions, go to week long schools with photographers. Just keep learning, keep going, keep being involved in the profession, serve on the boards in local organizations, because you're around other people, you're growing yourself. So, yeah, all the things. [00:55:23] Speaker B: Absolutely. And Lucy, where can the listener go to keep learning from you? [00:55:28] Speaker C: Yes. So lucydumascoaching.com is my website. And the profitable photographer podcast with Lucy Dumas is also. You can find that on my website, but all the podcast channels and also on YouTube now. And I'd like to offer eight of your listeners an opportunity to connect with me one on one. Is that okay? [00:55:53] Speaker B: Oh, wow. Definitely. Okay. [00:55:55] Speaker C: So I have a session I call your creating the business of your dreams session. And it's a deep dive into your dreams and some of your challenges where you get a really clear picture of where you are and where you want to go. And you can email me. I think I did put a recent link to set up a 20 minutes chat on acuity. So reach out to me. And even if you're listening to this months from now, I might. Every month I open up my schedule for some of these sessions and there's no pressure. Like, okay, now you have to hire me as a coach, but you get a taste if some of this you're like, oh, I wonder what it would be like. So I'd love to connect with your audience individually, as you know, if whoever feels inspired to connect with me, perfect. [00:56:53] Speaker B: Oh, thank you so much. I really appreciate that and I'm sure my listeners do too. And I hope they go and find your podcast, and I hope they go to find you on social media as well so they can keep learning from you. [00:57:06] Speaker C: Thank you. And quickly, on Lucy Dumas coaching, there's an ebook called ten big ideas for marketing in the real world. It's about getting away from the computer and getting out there and doing the things that have been working for centuries and beyond for people selling their art. So go there and get that. [00:57:30] Speaker B: Yeah, I will be sure to link to all those things in the show notes so that it's easy to find. [00:57:34] Speaker C: Great. [00:57:35] Speaker B: Thank you so much, Lucy. This has been amazing. [00:57:37] Speaker C: It's been so much fun for me and I can't wait to connect with you again. [00:57:41] Speaker B: Yeah, thank you so much. [00:57:43] Speaker C: Bye. [00:57:46] Speaker A: You just listened to an episode of sustainable photography. Please share this episode with the photographer you care about.