134. A conversation with a friend

[00:00:03] Speaker A: You're listening to sustainable photography, a podcast all about business tips, inspiration, and confidence building. I'm Ingvil Colnes, the host of this podcast. And after over a decade as a photographer, I now help talented photographers run sustainable businesses. And for full transparency, you should know that I'm a mentor with paid offers, and I will probably mention some of those in this episode. Okay, so today we're having a different kind of episode. I have asked my friend Taran to come and ask me some questions. I have no idea what she's going to ask me. I haven't prepared for anything. I don't know what's going to happen, but it's going to be a little bit different. And she's one of the people who knows me best, so it can be really interesting to hear what she has to say. And as a little, I don't know what I should call it, but just so you can see how well she knows me, we were in Oslo a week ago, two weeks ago, and I was staying at this house, and she came to the door and I didn't answer because I didn't know she was outside. And the doorbell didn't ring. And she looked in the kitchen window and she said to her husband, because he was right there giving her a lift, and she said, like, I see chocolate, I see Nutella, I see bread. This is it. She's here. So she knows me. [00:01:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:34] Speaker A: So. Hi, Taran. Welcome. [00:01:36] Speaker B: Hi. Thank you. [00:01:39] Speaker A: Can you just tell us who you are? [00:01:42] Speaker B: Yes. Hi, I'm Tara Neistal, and I'm a photographer. And I got to know Ingville when I was brand new in this occupation. And I needed somebody to learn all the things about photography or the business side of it. So I found Engvin. After that, we just became friends. And she's also my mentor. Mentor, friend. [00:02:14] Speaker A: Mentor, friend. Yeah, something like that. Something like that. Yeah. So it's been four years? [00:02:21] Speaker B: Is it really four years? Yeah. That's scary, actually. [00:02:26] Speaker A: I know. [00:02:27] Speaker B: So, yeah, this will be interesting. And you said I didn't prepare that much either, so that's fine. We will see where this goes. [00:02:41] Speaker A: Yeah. I'm excited. You just take control from now on. [00:02:46] Speaker B: Yeah, this is fun. Okay. Why did you become a photographer before? You are what you are now. [00:02:57] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah, I became a photographer after traveling. I was backpacking and started taking pictures. I bought a DSLR to take better pictures. And then I kind of got hooked on it. I thought it was a lot of fun, and I didn't want to come back home at your normal nine to five kind of job, or eight to four, as it is here in Norway, usually. [00:03:27] Speaker B: And you went to 24/7 yeah, I. [00:03:31] Speaker A: Went to 24/7 instead. Yeah. I didn't know that at the time, but, yeah, no, I just, I wanted something different and something creative, something. And that's how it started. I didn't know what I was getting myself into, of course, but we usually don't. [00:03:49] Speaker B: That's why I found you. I took the easy route. [00:03:54] Speaker A: Yeah, I definitely did not take an easy route. I'm glad. I'm glad it happened like that. It wasn't like a straight, like, oh, I started taking photos and then I quit my job and then I'm here. It was a lot of ups and downs and I had a part time job for years. [00:04:13] Speaker B: Yeah, and you had some criteria, didn't you, to quit your job? [00:04:18] Speaker A: Before I quit my job, yeah. I was going to have, like, a certain amount of money in my savings account. I had a different house at the time, so I was going to sell that house. And the house we have now, we were renting out half of it, so I was going to get people to rent that half just to have some kind of security. I was going to have a certain amount of weddings booked for the following year. There were a few things like that. And then when everything was in place, I quit my job and that's that. I haven't looked back since. It really changed everything, going full time, because I could take all my energy and put that into photography instead of splitting my days. [00:05:01] Speaker B: And how did your journey mold you into what you are doing now? [00:05:09] Speaker A: Oh, good question. You know, when I didn't have a job, like when I had no job, I have done like, those kind of personality assessment tests that you do when you're going through, like, a recruitment process or something like that. And, yeah, my brain is mainly analytical and theoretical and creativity, it's there, but it's not like my highest score or anything. So I've always known that I'm, I like the boring stuff. I like, you know, the sorting and figuring things out. So it's just something that I've done all along with my photography. I've just been like, okay, so how can I improve this process? How can I make this easier? How can I do this better? So that has something that's always been there and I haven't known why I've done it. I've just always tried to improve the things while I'm doing it. And I always knew that I liked the business side because when I got to know other photographers, I realized they didn't, they didn't look at their numbers and try to make sense of things, and they didn't think that much about the business. It was more like a creative outlet rather than, yeah, the business side. So I focused a lot on that. And then in speaking with others, I realized that I know some things that they haven't thought about. And it just became really natural to me to just share what I knew if they wanted to know, of course. And I think that's been the biggest part of it, just getting to know other photographers and seeing some of their struggles that I didn't find so difficult. And I especially remember looking for other photographers that I knew were really, really talented and not being able to find them. For example, in Google, I remember thinking, like, how come I'm really high up in the rankings and they're not here and they're ten times better than me? That doesn't make any sense. And I remember kind of that sad feeling of like, oh, it's not the best photographers that you see. It's just the ones that are the most visible. And I felt like it kind of became my, I don't know, obligation. Obligation, maybe, yeah. To help the talented ones to get found, instead of they being the ones that ended up burnt out and giving up, which is what I so often saw. Because photography can be hard work, because you decide everything. You set your own boundaries, and when you do the thing that you love the most, setting those boundaries can be really hard. And meeting with clients who maybe don't understand and demand too much of you is really challenging. And I thought that was so sad that the best ones are not the best ones. It's not okay. [00:08:19] Speaker B: When did you notice that you were, like, changing your business into something else? [00:08:27] Speaker A: I don't remember the year, but I think it must have been 2018. I remember so clearly because I was doing a wedding the next day, so it was a Friday, and I was at my cousin's house in Oslo. It was her summer house, and I was really looking forward to the wedding. But I was chatting with a friend on Instagram, and she's really good, she's so talented, but she was really struggling to get bookings. And we were talking back and forth, and I asked her some questions, and it turned out that there were some really fundamental things about running a business that she'd never thought about. And I was like, I know this stuff. I can really help her. And that was the big turning point where I was like, okay, I should really do something about this, but I was really scared and nervous, so it took quite some time. Maybe it was even before then. Maybe I'm wrong about the year, but I know that I was working on my program, the one that you've been in and the one that you are in for the longest time before anyone ever knew that it existed, because, first of all, I wanted it to be really good. And second of all, because it was too scary to. [00:09:52] Speaker B: Yeah, because then you have to, like, announce that you know stuff. [00:09:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:57] Speaker B: Like, come to me. [00:09:59] Speaker A: Yeah. You have to say, like, I think I know better than you. And that's not, that's not it. It's just that I had a different focus. [00:10:07] Speaker B: But it's the feeling of it. [00:10:09] Speaker A: Yeah, it's the feeling. And maybe, especially in Norway, it's not the same now, but a few years ago, people who wanted to do education were really looked down on. It was like, oh, you're trying to make money out of photographers. And, like, that was just a really bad thing. And to me, it was like, but this is. I don't know what else to call it, but, like, this is my calling. This is what I'm supposed to do. [00:10:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:37] Speaker A: And I felt like I couldn't do it. I felt like I needed to hide that. And I didn't know that many photographers, and I was really worried that the photographers I did know would kind of turn their backs on me when they found out that I was doing education because they were saying really not so positive things about that kind of stuff. But then when I saw that some of them were getting into mentoring and education, I was like, okay, so they can do it. It's just everyone else that can't do it, then surely I can do it, too. But as a way to kind of hide, I did start in English because it was too scary to do it in Norwegian because I felt like I would be more invisible if I did it in English, which clearly is not the case. But that was thinking behind it. [00:11:30] Speaker B: It's kind of the opposite, I think. But maybe. [00:11:34] Speaker A: Maybe. [00:11:35] Speaker B: Maybe in Norway. Yeah, I understand what you mean. [00:11:41] Speaker A: Yeah, it didn't work like that. I don't think I'm invisible anymore, and I don't really care anymore, either. Like, if someone thinks that I'm doing something wrong, that's their opinion, so I'm over that. [00:11:55] Speaker B: Good for you. [00:11:56] Speaker A: But that doesn't mean that I enjoy being visible. [00:11:59] Speaker B: No, I totally get that. I feel the same. Yeah. Okay. But what do you like to do when you're not working? If that happens. [00:12:17] Speaker A: I feel like this is a trick question. [00:12:20] Speaker B: Kind of is. [00:12:22] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, I have a dog. I was about to say my favorite person, but it's a dog. My favorite dog. Not your boyfriend. I was just starting with the dog. Okay. [00:12:37] Speaker B: Right. [00:12:38] Speaker A: So I have a dog. I have a dog, and I love being with her. [00:12:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:43] Speaker A: And of course, my boyfriend. Of course. [00:12:46] Speaker B: I know. I'm just teasing you. [00:12:48] Speaker A: Yeah, I know. My favorite thing is probably just being at home and being with them. Like, my favorite, favorite thing is lying on the sofa with both my dog and my boyfriend with a blanket, watching something on tv. That's probably my favorite thing. [00:13:04] Speaker B: And having your computer in your lap. [00:13:07] Speaker A: Even without the computer, that is my favorite thing. But I have told my boyfriend that when you fall asleep when we watch something, that's okay, because then you guys, that is my boyfriend and my dog can just lie there and sleep, and then I can work. So we're still together, but I can work at the same time. And he's like, oh, so your favorite thing is when I'm sleeping? But that's. It's not true. It was kind of taken out of context, but that's my favorite thing. Just being at home doing nothing, if you want to call it that. [00:13:46] Speaker B: That's the thing. [00:13:47] Speaker A: We tend to always do some kind of renovations, so I really like that as well. I do not do the heavy lifting. That's all my boyfriend, but I do some of the littler things, and I think that's really fun. Right now, we're renovating a bathroom, laundry room kind of thing, which has kind of evolved into a lot more. I, of course, also like hanging out with my friends and meeting new people, especially a photographer or friends. That's always fun. [00:14:16] Speaker B: Yeah. We see you quite a lot, like, meetings every week and. Yeah, but when we're talking about that, that is very important, I think to have people in the industry to talk to, it is just tell things to that happens or just. They can understand what we're going through. They can and can relate, and they don't always need to have a solution, but it's good sometimes when they do, too. [00:14:53] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think it might have been in, like, 2019. I made, you know, we often make, like, vision boards or have these, like, things that you want more of, and then you try to kind of write that down, like, what do you want? [00:15:08] Speaker B: Yeah, we should lie. [00:15:09] Speaker A: Yeah. One thing that I really wanted was photographer friends that was on my list, like, other people that are in business and stuff, because it matters so much. And then I felt like when we did the first round of the program and it was you, me, Inasa and guerille, it was just like, this is it. This is so great. And we can just chat and hang out and have so much fun. [00:15:37] Speaker B: It was great. [00:15:38] Speaker A: It was great. [00:15:39] Speaker B: And for me, learning all the stuff I really needed to learn from other photographers that were having the same struggles as me, it helped me, like, okay, so even though you guys have been doing this, you have a lot of the same questions as me. I didn't feel like an outsider, if you understand. [00:16:03] Speaker A: Yeah, I definitely understand. And I think that's something that is important to know, that no matter how long you've been a photographer for or no matter how long you've been in business for, there's always, you know, something that you don't know. There's always something that you can get better at. There's always something you're unsure of. I mean, if you're not unsure of anything, there must be something wrong with you. That's, that's what I think. [00:16:30] Speaker B: I agree. [00:16:31] Speaker A: And it's not, it's not like it's, the longer you've been in business, the more you know, because you can be really new and you can be really good at this one thing. Yeah, or you can be, I mean, it's, it's all depends on, we're all on different levels on different things, and. [00:16:45] Speaker B: It depends on what you're interested in. [00:16:48] Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah. And that's what I keep telling you, that there's so many of us because that's something that I think is really important. When you're in a group with a lot of others, we all have different strengths and we can learn so much from each other. And one thing that I keep telling you is that you know so much about, like, the tech stuff, the systems and the softwares and stuff, and not everyone else does, and we want to learn what you know. [00:17:15] Speaker B: And that's kind of funny, I think, because I don't see it that way, but, yeah, I'm slowly leaning into it. Yeah. [00:17:26] Speaker A: Good. [00:17:27] Speaker B: But, you know, it took you a while, too, to understand that. [00:17:31] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:17:32] Speaker B: That you knew stuff that others didn't, and I think that's the way it is for many people. [00:17:39] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I'm actually, when I see new educators or I don't know what to call it, pop up, it's more often than not photographers who haven't been doing it for very long. And a part of me is, like, jealous almost, that they can just, without worry, just jump into it, because it took me so long to get into that place of being ready. I felt like I needed to really prove myself as a photographer first. I didn't want to just be one of those people who, even though I wanted to be an educator way before, I thought that I was that good a photographer, but I felt like I needed to prove myself in terms of, like, having enough income and having, you know, I have awards from competitions and stuff, because I felt like I needed to be good at that before. I deserve to be taken seriously as an educator. I don't necessarily think of it like that now, because you can be a terrible photographer and still be great and other things, it doesn't really matter, but it's just having that kind of confidence and not caring that I think can be really healthy. [00:18:52] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, totally. I totally get that. But I understand why you thought that, because in a way, it kind of feels easier if I know that you already went that path, on that same path as me. I know that you can relate to what I'm thinking, so. Yeah, I totally get that. Yeah. Maybe you could have done it without doing all of that, but I think it's all a part of your journey. [00:19:25] Speaker A: Yeah, it's not like I regret it. It's just that I kind of think it's a shame that I've held myself back for so long from what I wanted to do. [00:19:34] Speaker B: We do do that. [00:19:36] Speaker A: We do do that. But I do think it's good, because if I hadn't known enough about photography and all the emotions that go into it, it's really hard to empathize if you're like, oh, I'm finding it really hard to cull. Or when I don't hear back from my clients, it's like, of course that's always hard, but we have to still move forward. But I understand it so much because it sucks when you don't hear back or when you have, like, a thousand images and, you know, you should get it down to half of that. [00:20:09] Speaker B: Yeah, I know. I know that feeling. We all do. But when we're talking about regrets, do you. Do you have any regrets? [00:20:20] Speaker A: In my life? [00:20:21] Speaker B: Yeah. Why not? Sure. [00:20:25] Speaker A: No, actually, I don't. Because I honestly believe that if I had made any choices in my life differently, I wouldn't be where I am today. And this is where I want to be. But that does not mean that I think that I've made all clever decisions or that I haven't hated being in some of the situations and decisions that I've made at the time. But right now, I'm very happy that everything has turned out the way they did. [00:20:51] Speaker B: Yeah. And that's a good thing. You can always learn from things and take that with you. Like, you can always take something out of a bad situation and turn it around, so. Yeah, I totally agree. Yeah, that's what I wanted you to say. [00:21:11] Speaker A: Good. I'm glad I'm replying. As you had planned. [00:21:16] Speaker B: Yes. What has been one of your biggest. [00:21:20] Speaker A: Struggles in my business, I'm assuming. [00:21:24] Speaker B: Yeah, you can. Yeah, you can take your business. [00:21:27] Speaker A: Oh, there's so many. I don't know how to choose. I guess I found it hard to move from, like, one location to another because I've had my business in three different places, and that's felt hard because it's felt like I needed to start over and dealing with competitors, feeling like I needed to compete with the other people around me. Like, I remember when I. When I moved to, I guess I was living here in Christiansen, and there was this one photographer who was a friend of a friend of mine, and she was really good. Like. Like, she'd gone to photography school, which I haven't, and she was just so good. And then. And then she was there, and I felt like she was competition because she moved here from a different city, and then I moved to, like, way up north, and then she moved there, too, to this, like, tiny, tiny place in Svalbard. And I was like, what are the odds that she's coming from here to there? And then after living there, I moved back down here, and then she moved back down here, and I was like, she's following me. This feels really, really, um. I just remember the feeling of how I needed to compete and that I wasn't good enough to compete. That was really, really stressful. Of course, now I don't think of it like that at all, but at the time, that feeling of almost having enemies, I remember just looking at everyone else around me like, ah, everyone's doing so much better than me, it looks like. Why did that? Those people booked that one. They should have booked me. When you have meetings, that feeling of competition, that's been really stressful for me. [00:23:17] Speaker B: If somebody else has the same feelings, do you have any advice on how they should think about it or how they should cope with those feelings? [00:23:33] Speaker A: First of all, I would say, try to get to know those people, because they could be yourself, greatest supporters and your best friends. And second of all, I would say, figure out who you are and who you want to be as a photographer, because then you're no longer competing with everyone. You're just being your best self and it doesn't really matter and that there are other ones out there because you're focusing on getting your clients and not like, who's stealing yours because it doesn't really work like that. And finally, and maybe most importantly, it has to do with working on your mindset to not thinking like, oh, we're in the same place, so we are competing against each other. But, like, thinking about, how do I really think about this? How many clients do I really need? Do I really think that I can do this or not just focusing on you and your mindset and how you think? Because if you're feeling like there's never going to be enough for me when there's a competitor around, you're not going to feel any differently if they go away because you felt the way that way before you discovered them. So working on mindset, which I think is a lifelong thing, it's not something you do, and then you're done with it. You just have to keep working. I know. I know. You have to keep working on that. [00:25:03] Speaker B: That's true. When we're talking about mindset, how do you go about working on it? How do you set your mind to changing how you think? [00:25:21] Speaker A: The most important thing is that I try to get to know and surround myself with people who think like I want to think, who are in the same or a similar place from where I want to be, instead of hanging out with people who think like, oh, there's never going to be enough to be with people who have more than enough, who feel like, this is going great. We can do this because it's infectious. You tend to believe what others believe, and if you don't have any people like that, I would go out and try to find them. That's what I've been trying to do. I joined the network this last year, and that's been great because I get to meet people who are in business who are doing great and who believe that they are allowed to do great. [00:26:18] Speaker B: And maybe go out of your comfort zone a little. [00:26:24] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Reading books, listening to podcasts helps me a lot. Almost like being told that you're allowed to have more, you're allowed to get bookings, you deserve to get paid. And I also have, like, little notifications on my phone that are popping up every day telling me stuff like you're allowed to charge, you deserve to do great, those kind of things, which sounds like such a cliche, but it does work because you kind of remind yourself all the time because we tend to in our heads say, you know, the bad things, like, oh, I shouldn't charge for this, or, I understand what you mean. [00:27:06] Speaker B: I have a yoga app. And every time I do a yoga, it's like, oh, you did so great just showing up here. And I'm like, yes, I'm so great. I believe it. [00:27:19] Speaker A: Yeah. Because if you feed yourself with those messages, they can kind of take over all those other messages of like, oh, look out for that photographer. They're out there to steal your clients. And it's like, no, they can just take their clients and you stick to yours. Because if we pay too much attention to other people and what they do instead of ourselves, then that's sending the wrong message, I think, to ourselves and to our clients because they pick up on that stuff. [00:27:48] Speaker B: Yeah. You become what you believe you are, right? [00:27:53] Speaker A: Absolutely. And I think that's true for many reasons or on different levels. Because on the one side, it's that if you believe something, if I think, like, I can do this, I can get enough clients, then I'll do the work to make sure that I will get enough clients. But if I'm doubting it, like, yeah, I don't think I can get enough clients. Or if I'm sure of it, I know I won't get enough clients, I'm not going to do the work. That's one part of it. And then there's the other part of it, which in a way, I'm struggling to believe because as I told one of my mentoring clients yesterday, I'm not very spiritual, or I would say I'm not spiritual. I don't really believe in stuff. [00:28:41] Speaker B: Stuff. [00:28:42] Speaker A: But when it comes to, I don't know what to call it. But when it comes to, you know, mindset things, yeah, I've just seen it. I've felt it time and time again where if I feel I'm too busy now, I can't take on any more clients. There's just so much going on, which is a feeling that I tend to have. [00:29:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:05] Speaker A: Then I won't get any inquiries. It's just going to stop completely. There won't. Nothing will come in. And the second I'm like, feel ready now, I feel ready to take on more, I'm ready to. And then they just come in and it's like I feel like there's something inside me turning it on and off. Same with money. When I feel confident, it's good. When I feel like I have enough time to do this I do have enough time to do it. So there's something there, but I don't know what it is. I can't explain it. [00:29:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:38] Speaker A: Can you relate? Do you understand what I'm saying? [00:29:40] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I can totally relate. Yeah. It's just like that. And I think we are standing in our way, like, yeah. If we have one kind of mindset, it will help us to get to where we want to be. And if we think badly about ourselves, it will make it more difficult to get to where you want to be because we are standing in our own way, stopping ourselves. If we're talking ourselves down, then we won't have the same, or we will have the outcome that you don't want because you can predict it almost. [00:30:26] Speaker A: I agree. Talking about how competition is your. I don't know, it's hard to deal with the competition or it's difficult to live without having enough money. And there's, I don't know, a bad economical situation. There's a difficult economic situation right now, all those things. It might be true, but your biggest issue is your mindset, because if you believe that it doesn't matter that the financial situation is difficult right now, then you'll find a way around it. If you think that you are serving a different audience from your competitors, then that's the way it is. I mean, no matter how you think, you're going to find a way to make that come true. [00:31:07] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really actually important to know that you are. You can in some ways change how things are going just with your mindset. [00:31:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:23] Speaker B: How do you continue to learn new things and grow in your business? [00:31:30] Speaker A: Oh, that's a good question. I do different things. Maybe sometimes I do too much. But I have a coach. Her name is Michelle Terpstra. She's been on the podcast. We've been working together for, I don't know, two, three years now, maybe a long time. And she's brilliant. I love her. I've had a lot of other mentors who have also been on the podcast, and I've mentioned them all. I learned so much from other people. I think we should always work with someone because if not, we're stuck in our own way of thinking. We're stuck with our own problems and our own crap. Yeah, own crap. I do think that we have so much to learn from our peers, people who are at exactly the same level as us or a little bit above or below. But we also need someone who's at the place where we want to be. So I think that's really important. [00:32:29] Speaker B: Good one. [00:32:31] Speaker A: I do a lot of online courses. If I can find in person courses, I love doing those as well. I am in a network group. I been to a couple of retreats lately, so I pretty much do whatever I can to. And I read books, listen to audiobooks, podcasts. Do it all. [00:32:51] Speaker B: Yes. You really do. Yeah. [00:32:55] Speaker A: But I'm not always the best at following up. For example, I did this retreat in January, which was amazing. We were three days at this lake where we got up at like 07:00 a.m. did yoga, had to eat healthy, do all those things. And it was so valuable. We did. What's it called? Ice bathing. [00:33:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:19] Speaker A: Where you have to get in the water. Yeah. So we did, like, a lot of things like that to learn to control our breathing and just. [00:33:25] Speaker B: You did that? [00:33:27] Speaker A: I did that, yeah. I haven't told you. [00:33:30] Speaker B: I don't think so. I'm just. What, did you freeze to death? [00:33:38] Speaker A: I could have, but you know why you didn't hear about it? It's because on the way back. On the way back home, I got food poisoning and I was, like, outside for like a week. [00:33:49] Speaker B: Yeah, I remember that. [00:33:50] Speaker A: No one really knows what happened. [00:33:53] Speaker B: Nobody knows. It's like. [00:33:54] Speaker A: So no one really knows what happened that weekend. [00:33:57] Speaker B: What stays in. I don't know where you were, but not Vegas. [00:34:02] Speaker A: What happens in Hulgo stays in Hulgo. Yeah. Anyway, my point was that, yeah, I learned all this amazing stuff and how to have a better life in a way, but then following up on it hasn't been so easy. So for me, learning things, great. But I need that ongoing accountability and to have someone there to make sure that. Not to make sure that I do it, because that's going to probably annoy me. But to have their presence to kind of give me a nudge just by being there, that helps. Yeah. [00:34:36] Speaker B: You don't like people telling you what to do, right? [00:34:40] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't like being told what to do, but you don't either, so. [00:34:47] Speaker B: Right back at me. Yeah. No, we don't. [00:34:54] Speaker A: Did you know that I have a shop where you can find quite a few different courses and resources that can help you build your business? Go to engelcolones.com shop to find the thing that can make the biggest difference in your business. Okay. So we are continuing the conversation after the microphone suddenly dropped out. So if this sounds a little bit different, it's because it's been a couple of months and we don't really know where we left off. So we're just seeing how it goes. Yeah. [00:35:30] Speaker B: Yeah, that sounds about right. [00:35:32] Speaker A: Yeah, it sounds about right. So let's just try. Do you have a question for me today? [00:35:37] Speaker B: Yes, of course I do. Okay. So if I ask you to give me your best advice, what would that be? [00:35:46] Speaker A: You today or you, like three years ago? You can choose. [00:35:50] Speaker B: Maybe both. [00:35:51] Speaker A: Oh, I can choose. Okay. Well, I think you. Three years ago. [00:35:58] Speaker B: Oh, yes. [00:36:00] Speaker A: You did so many of the things that I think that a lot of people kind of miss out on because you kind of went straight in and you're like, I don't know how to do this. Please help. And I think that got you off on a start where you kind of missed out on a lot of things, where other people spend a lot of time being stuck. [00:36:19] Speaker B: I'm nodding. [00:36:21] Speaker A: Yeah, you're nodding. Yeah. So I would say I don't know what else you could have done, because when we started working together, is it four years ago? I don't really. Yeah, four years. Four years. Okay. Four years ago, it was the start of the pandemic. [00:36:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:39] Speaker A: You were at home with little kids almost every single day. I don't really see how you could have done anything differently, but of course, it wasn't the best time to get started. Now, if I'm going to talk to you today, okay, let's say that I didn't know you and you just kind of had a meeting with me and kind of presented your business to me. [00:37:09] Speaker B: Yes. [00:37:10] Speaker A: I would start by figuring out what you actually want and you know what you want, because, you know, you don't want to work too much. You want to make sure that you're not spending every evening and every weekend working. And I think you're pretty good at keeping. You're not taking on bookings when you don't want them, and you're good at charging when it's, like, extra work. And that's great. But what I want you to look more into is probably where are you getting most of your bookings today, and where are you spending most of your time today when it comes to marketing? And see, does that add up? Because it's so easy to just. This is what I do every single day, and then you're not checking. Does it actually work? [00:37:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:50] Speaker A: So that's probably just because I know that it's so easy to overwork and I know that your time is so limited that that's probably where I would start to make sure that you're getting the most out of your precious time. [00:38:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:04] Speaker A: And once you figure out where most of your bookings are coming from. I would want to see what else can you do to make that even better? Is there something you can do a bit differently? Can you get help from someone to make it even better and then do that and maybe spend less time doing the things that isn't working as well or just learn to do it in a different way so it's serving you better? [00:38:30] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good advice. And I often go check to see where my inquiries are coming from, but it's a thing that I should follow up on more. [00:38:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:46] Speaker B: Try to see if I can make a plan. [00:38:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:50] Speaker B: You know, I'm a person. [00:38:53] Speaker A: Yeah, I know you don't like to plan, but I do think it can save you a lot of wasted time, because if you see that, oh, I get ten out of 13 inquiries through Instagram, and I'm spending an hour there every week. What would happen if I were to spend 2 hours on Instagram? That kind of thing. [00:39:11] Speaker B: Yeah, I totally agree. I should do that. [00:39:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:39:16] Speaker B: Okay. So if you think about your career so far. Oh, yeah. What is the strangest thing that has happened to you along the way? [00:39:30] Speaker A: The strangest thing? I would say that I feel like I experienced more strange things in the beginning. There's not that many strange things that happen anymore in the beginning. [00:39:42] Speaker B: That's good. [00:39:44] Speaker A: Yeah. I think it kind of comes with the territory when you start charging more and you're more selective about who you decide to work with. But I still think that my first wedding was my strangest wedding because after the ceremony, we went back to their house to get some things and just. I don't know, I think I was getting some detailed photos and stuff, and the groom and his best man sat down to play PlayStation for like an hour or so. And it's like, it's your wedding day. Shouldn't you kind of prioritize being with your new wife? I don't know. It was just a little bit strange. But now that I think about it, maybe it's just really nice that they just did whatever they felt like. But at the time, I felt. I still remember that really strange feeling of like, what is going on here? This is strange. It felt strange to me. [00:40:39] Speaker B: Yeah. But we all have those moments, I guess. [00:40:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:45] Speaker B: If you remember a time, like, do you have, like, one thing that has happened that you were surprised by that really took you by surprise? Something will happen. Could be during a wedding, could be during a session, a customer. [00:41:05] Speaker A: You're thinking about what's specific happening. No, because there was this one wedding where you came with me to help me out and. [00:41:16] Speaker B: Oh, my God, yes. [00:41:17] Speaker A: Yeah. The groom's son passed out. He, like, had a seizure or something during the ceremony, and I had to phone the ambulance and that was. Yeah, that was horrific. That surprised me. I had not seen that coming. He was fine. He went away with the ambulance and he came back after a few hours. [00:41:37] Speaker B: Yeah, that was scary. Yeah, I totally. [00:41:40] Speaker A: So everything was fine, but that was. Yeah, that was scary. [00:41:45] Speaker B: That is actually my most surprised moment. [00:41:48] Speaker A: Yeah, that wasn't a good day. But the wedding outside of that, that was a really lovely wedding. So that part was good. [00:41:59] Speaker B: I agree. [00:42:00] Speaker A: Yeah. But other than that, I think it's. I guess it's to do with clients and just really experiencing how different people are. Like some people, you would think that, like, for example, meeting someone for an engagement session, and they're like the most chill people ever. And then on the wedding day, it's like they've switched personalities and they just become so obsessive over every little detail. That's surprised me quite a lot. [00:42:26] Speaker B: Now. [00:42:26] Speaker A: I don't think it's something that I would think that much about because I've gotten so used to it, but I guess people don't necessarily know themselves. In a lot of situations, people tend to overestimate, maybe what they're capable of, and I think that's true. Yeah. [00:42:43] Speaker B: It's something that they haven't done before. So maybe people have different reactions than they thought they would. [00:42:51] Speaker A: Exactly. And that goes both for photography clients as well as mentoring clients, where people think like, no, I don't need this, or I can do this myself. And it's like, you really should have someone put makeup on you. You don't want to do your own here on your wedding day. In most cases, that is true. And I think it's exactly the same with mentoring students, students of mine as well, where it's like, yeah, you can do that yourself, but should you? Is it a good idea or is it going to kind of make everything else that you do in your business not as good because you just wanted to do it yourself to save a little bit of money that could easily cost you a lot. [00:43:34] Speaker B: Totally. Yeah, I agree. [00:43:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:37] Speaker B: That's why I found you in the first place. [00:43:41] Speaker A: Well, it was lucky that I was on Pinterest just when you were on Pinterest, because I don't really focus too much on Pinterest anymore. I know, and that's also another thing, focusing on everything at once. I've tried so many different ways of marketing. And after a while, it's just like, oh, I have forgotten about that. But Pinterest obviously has worked at some time, so maybe I should go back to pinning things again. [00:44:07] Speaker B: Maybe. [00:44:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Because, yeah. Testing and trying. And I think that's not that you asked, but that's one thing that I would do something about in my business. Have someone to help me out more, someone who can just tell me, like, shouldn't you start pinning your podcast episodes to Pinterest? Don't worry, I'll do it for you. That's what I want. That's what I want. [00:44:31] Speaker B: Like we talked about, I want to have a person to like, you can just ask, should I do this or should I do that? [00:44:36] Speaker A: Yes. [00:44:37] Speaker B: And I was like, you should do that. That's great. [00:44:41] Speaker A: But I want someone to actually do it as well. [00:44:43] Speaker B: Do it as well. [00:44:44] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I am kind of stretched for time as it is, so I don't want to take any more on. [00:44:51] Speaker B: Of course. Yes, I can relate to that. [00:44:55] Speaker A: Yes, I think most people can. And that's why it's such a shame where we're all, again, just trying to do everything ourselves, because it's so hard to trust someone else with it. And that is what I want in my business. Someone I can just trust to handle things for me. [00:45:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:11] Speaker A: Maybe when we do this kind of episode again sometime. That's what I'm going to say, that I found the person and now everything's just running smoothly. [00:45:20] Speaker B: I wish you would find that person. [00:45:23] Speaker A: I'm going to try. [00:45:25] Speaker B: Yeah, that's good. [00:45:26] Speaker A: What would you want in your business? [00:45:30] Speaker B: I kind of want the same. [00:45:32] Speaker A: Okay. Okay. So if someone's listening, there's people out there ready to book you to help us out. [00:45:41] Speaker B: Like, what is it called? Personal assistant. [00:45:46] Speaker A: Yeah. Like a va or something. [00:45:48] Speaker B: Yeah. Like all the little stuff I don't want to do. [00:45:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:45:52] Speaker B: Like, so much. [00:45:54] Speaker A: And that I forget to do the things that I just spent so much time on and that I easily forget to do that is. And. [00:46:03] Speaker B: And often I forget to, like, put that into my schedule. That is a lot of little things that need to be done because, yeah, every time I get a day and I think, okay, this is my editing day. And then I have that day and I'm like, oh, no, I need to do this and this and this and this and this, and suddenly the whole day is over. [00:46:25] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:46:26] Speaker B: Because all the little things were actually quite important. [00:46:31] Speaker A: All the little things, usually, or not all of them, but some of the little things can be important. Yeah. [00:46:37] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:46:39] Speaker A: I guess I can ask you a final question. How do you feel your business is today? How solid do you feel it is compared to how it was when you started out? Do you feel more like this is my job now or. [00:46:51] Speaker B: Yeah, I really do feel that right now. And it has taken time, but I think it would have take me more time if I had done it all by myself. Like, figure out everything. [00:47:07] Speaker A: Definitely, yeah. [00:47:10] Speaker B: This year, it's three years since I quit my job and, huh. That has gone by fast. But I started with almost no customers at all. So for me to, like, have what I have now, it's. It's more stable. Yeah. [00:47:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:47:31] Speaker B: But it's. It's ups and down, you know? But I feel like I have a business now that's really good. [00:47:38] Speaker A: I think having those ups and downs are. I don't know. I don't think they're communicated enough. Everyone has them. Everyone thinks, like, should I quit? Should I start looking for, like, a real job? Can I do this? Is it possible? So I think just hearing that everyone has them, and if you stick with it and you keep learning and doing things differently when you need to, it's going to work out in the end. [00:48:03] Speaker B: Yeah. And try for me, actually, I have. It's weird because you always say that you need to learn people how to say no. And I have really incorporated that into my business. [00:48:19] Speaker A: Let's say no. Yeah. [00:48:21] Speaker B: I have also actually learned to say yes a lot. [00:48:24] Speaker A: Okay, that's good. That was good. [00:48:26] Speaker B: Yeah. Because I almost didn't start out because I was like, no, I can't do this, or I'm too afraid or I don't have the courage. I can't do like you guys. Like everyone says, like, if I can do it, you can do it. That's true. [00:48:45] Speaker A: It is true. [00:48:46] Speaker B: You just have to make up your mind. Don't quit. [00:48:51] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. You have to go for it. You have to decide, this is gonna happen. I need to go for it. [00:48:58] Speaker B: I think mindsets has everything to do with it. [00:49:01] Speaker A: It does. Yeah. You have to learn the things you need to do, and you can figure out most things on your own, but it can also waste you so much time and so much money if you. If you do. [00:49:15] Speaker B: I have tried many things, like if to check if this is a fit for me. Like, do I like to do this? I can do it. But it's like, it's trying and failing and learning from mistakes, I think. [00:49:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:49:31] Speaker B: It's really important than not being afraid to fail. [00:49:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Don't look for that this is the right way to do it because that doesn't exist. Try things until you find whatever it is that works for you. And even then, don't be afraid to keep developing that and making it better and better. And if you reach that point where you think like, I know everything, I don't need anyone's input or anyone's help, you've gone too far because that place does not exist. The more you learn, the more you realize that you don't know anything. Yeah, that's a really dangerous place to be. So don't stop learning. [00:50:10] Speaker B: Never. Never. Yeah. [00:50:14] Speaker A: Perfect. Thank you so much for redoing these questions after losing the audio there at the end. [00:50:21] Speaker B: It was really nice. [00:50:23] Speaker A: Yes, thank you so much. [00:50:25] Speaker B: Thank you. Nice talking to you, like always. [00:50:30] Speaker A: Thank you. Bye bye. You just listened to an episode of sustainable photography. Please share this episode with the photographer you care about.