Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hi, and welcome to sustainable photography. Today I have a very special guest. I have my friend Muna moo with me, and she is a retired photographer who went through burnout. And that is what we're going to talk about today. And it's such an important topic, and I hope you're going to listen to the episode.
You're listening to sustainable photography, a podcast all about business tips, inspiration, and confidence building. I'm Inguil Kolnes, the host of this podcast, and after over a decade as a photographer, I now help talented photographers run sustainable businesses. And for full transparency, you should know that I'm a mentor with paid offers, and I will probably mention some of those in this episode.
Today on the podcast, I have my friend Mona, who I've looked up to for years, and I finally asked if she wanted to do an episode with me, which she did. So why don't we start with you just telling us who you are, Mona.
[00:01:08] Speaker B: Okay, I will.
I'm kind of a photographer. I always resisted to be a photographer. It's not something I wanted to be. I never dreamt about being a photographer. And even when I was working as a photographer, it was difficult for me to say I'm a photographer.
I prefer, like, storyteller. It sets me a bit more free in my work. But I have been working as a photojournalist in Africa.
I am norwegian, and I live in Norway now. And I worked for a long time as a wedding and portrait photographer. Some editorial, made some books. My education is in art photography as arthem. And I guess that's where my heart is.
And I got burned out, as many photographers do.
And now I have retired. As I say, I'm not working as a photographer anymore. I work in an old age home as a nurse. But I do some photography still for books, but only when I don't have any pressure. That that's how I work now.
[00:02:24] Speaker A: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And we've known each other for a long time. And to me, I was surprised that you suddenly was like, no, I'm not a photographer anymore. I'm selling all my equipment. It was like, what's happening?
What did happen?
[00:02:43] Speaker B: I think it was definitely not out of the blue. You know, I write a lot every morning. You know, I have all these sketchbooks and I write. And I was reading the other day something I wrote, like five years ago, I think now I quit.
And I had written like, it was not like it came out of the blue. It was more like one of those, you know, those bathing balls is it called, you know those balls you have in the swimming pool? Yeah. One of those that had stayed out in the winter.
You know, the color just fade off and the air just slowly goes out. There is no hole in the ball. It's just, you know, that's how I felt.
And I think it took me a long time to realize what exactly went wrong. I mean, it didn't go wrong. It went very right because I couldn't live like that.
But I think now that I did a lot of therapy, I did a lot of work on myself to understand.
There's many things to realize.
First thing first, I think, was my self worth.
I think it has a lot to do with being woman in our day society and running your own business.
I think a lot of women, we come to photography as artists, with our soul, with the creative spirit. We don't go to photography to earn money, to have prestige, to have a business at all.
This is the masculine aspect of our society that forces into competition, into making money. It becomes about something else. I think this is a big frustration for women entrepreneurs today. And I think we don't know it, how big a problem it is for us. I think as women, we are not brought up in a way that it's easy for us to put a price.
I think it's easier for men to be in a business and say, okay, this is what it costs. It's expensive, but I want to earn money for us. These things hurt.
And for me, it felt a bit like prostitution.
And my self worth went down and down and down, and I had no idea.
So in that way, it also came as a surprise to me when there was no more air in the balloon, because I love photography. I loved all the things I was doing it, so many aspects of it that I really loved, and meeting all the people I love the, you know, the ecstatic feeling of getting a good shot also, like, sharing it.
But there is also another side that almost killed me, which is, I think, also has to do with being woman, actually, which is my codependency and my tendency to seek validation from outside and trying to make people like me in a way, with trying to impress, which is, I think, a very masculine way, again. And, you know, these things, you don't know it, but it's kind of eats a bit of your soul all the time.
And I got hooked on likes.
I felt like one of those, you know, those russian dancers that they dance like the music goes faster and faster and faster and they just dance like crazy, you know, that's how it felt like the more people applaud, the more you dance, like, hectically and you don't even know what you're doing.
You just once a more applause and, you know, it's not good. You're going to collapse at some point. Yeah.
[00:07:09] Speaker A: So that's what happened. You just. You just did too much. And then it was enough. It was over.
[00:07:16] Speaker B: My soul was not in there.
[00:07:19] Speaker A: And you didn't realize until it was too late, really?
[00:07:22] Speaker B: Well, I realized from day one.
[00:07:25] Speaker A: Oh, okay.
[00:07:26] Speaker B: That this is not the way for me to. I remember I lived in Africa, worked as a photojournalist. That was okay. The moment I got back to Norway and I started to have my own business and try to promote myself in social medias.
You know, you have to put yourself so much out there.
That moment, I remember it. I remember I went to bed one evening and my whole body was like this, like, shaking. Yeah. My energy was not inside me anymore. It was spread everywhere. And I remember thinking, shit, I cannot live like this. And still, for many years I did.
[00:08:08] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:08:11] Speaker A: I'm sure you've spoken to other people who feel the same way.
Do you think you could have done something differently?
[00:08:20] Speaker B: Probably not.
[00:08:21] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:08:22] Speaker B: I think this is what I had to learn, you know, but if someone told me, like, if, if there was this kind of podcast at that time and someone was talking about these values, I think it could have helped me to realize a little bit earlier. But I think, or for me at least, there was no one talking about these things.
I thought about it later how much it put me down to when people were. When you had a price for your pictures. Like, this is what it costs. And people say, that's too expensive.
And I thought, but it actually really put me a little bit down inside every time until there was not no security, nothing left. I really felt like every time someone put the price down or the value down, I took it personally because my work is personal.
[00:09:22] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:09:23] Speaker A: I think that's what a lot of people don't realize, because I think it's maybe, especially as a wedding photographer, there's a lot of haggling, like, oh, I want this many guests, and we want it for this price.
[00:09:34] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:09:35] Speaker A: And it's very different to do that with maybe a hotel than it is to do that with a photographer because we put everything in it. This is like, it is so personal. So the difference is you just can't do that to someone. It's not okay.
[00:09:54] Speaker B: It's not okay. Not at all. And we don't talk about it as photographers, we don't talk about that part. We just get told you have to be more with your prices. But if we don't want to talk about what it does to our soul or our, then we can't deal with it.
I think because for me, I could listen to people, especially men, the reason I talk so much about feminine, masculine, because I really think there are differences when running a business and when being a photographer. And I really, really believe this is why so many women in the photography business, this is the core, and we listen so many men with the advice for business.
But that is not where the problem lays.
It lays in here when we keep taking it personally and thinking that they are actually saying we are not good enough.
And then we have this belief from before that maybe about most of us struggle with this, I'm not good enough. And you have to be very, very strong.
You really have to love yourself, which we don't like most of us to be so safe or so you know.
[00:11:21] Speaker A: I understand what you're saying. And I think maybe because, of course, I've been exactly where you're describing, where I was told again and again that my prices are too expensive, even though they weren't. Like they weren't at all. And I've told this story many times before that my prices were so low that I was, in reality, paying to get to shoot people's weddings because I didn't, I didn't know. And still people told me that I was too expensive. And of course, that's really devastating.
My kind of initial solution has been to make sure that you know your numbers, that you know, and if someone is telling you that you're too expensive, that's kind of their problem. But I don't think I've ever thought to kind of heal the part or even think about the part that, how destructive that is to your heart and soul, because it really is.
[00:12:16] Speaker B: It really is. If you are not aware of that, it eats on you and you believe about yourself.
[00:12:24] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:12:25] Speaker B: And I think we, most of us also have, like, grow up with an issue around money, you know, or at least me, I think I always thought, like, money is for the greedy or, you know, or you feel like you're a bit spiritual or you're. You can't deal with those things. You want to be kind, so you just give away all your money.
We have so many issues that is not actually, we know we can put this price, but if we can't think that we deserve the money or we are really worth it, then, like me, I even, like, put my prices down before people said anything. Sometimes, you know, I knew for me, the prices are expensive. So they said, okay, we want to book you. I said, okay, you can have it a little cheaper.
[00:13:18] Speaker A: Yes. So common. Yeah.
[00:13:20] Speaker B: It's ridiculous.
But what is very interesting, when I finally said, okay, I can't do this anymore, it was my last season, and I didn't want to photograph another wedding. I really had enough, you know?
[00:13:37] Speaker A: I know the feeling.
[00:13:38] Speaker B: Yeah. So I put my prices up double. I mean, I think my price was double what every other wedding photographer in Norway. So I thought, now I don't need to photograph any weddings.
And people called me and they said, we want to book you, but why are you so expensive?
I said, well, because that's what I need to do this job. I'm not doing it for less. Fine, we book you.
[00:14:06] Speaker A: No.
[00:14:07] Speaker B: You know, we should have known this before, but that is why I had the confidence to say, this is the amount of money I need to do the job. Otherwise, forget it.
[00:14:18] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:14:18] Speaker B: So if we had that confidence from the beginning, I could do only half the weddings in the season.
[00:14:23] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:14:25] Speaker A: No, but that's so common. And I hear that, that so often where it's like you just think that it's a matter of charging less, and then you'll get the bookings, which means that you have to work twice as much.
[00:14:39] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:14:40] Speaker A: And I think I just remember something from the pandemic, which, fortunately for you, you were done by then. But for the rest of us, we were in the middle of it, and there used to be this thing called. What was it called? It was something where you, like, having a live talk was an app, and people were coming on it. And me and Christine Ade, we used to have a talk every Friday at one, and then people would come join. And I remember one time, there were a few of the top male photographers in Norway who came on, and they're like, yeah, you just say that they have to pay this extra fee when they want to rebook their wedding, because you can't just expect to get another date. So just say it's this much. And it. Yeah, and that's what they did. And it worked fine for them. But when I tried to do that, it didn't work because the grooms would call me up and be like, no, why are you doing this? You can't do this. We are not going to pay more. And for me, it was like, okay, so because I'm a girl, I can't call it a fee. I have to do something else. And it was just such an eye opener that what worked really well for them, it just, it just wouldn't work for me.
[00:15:51] Speaker B: And I think that has to do with your self worth. You know, we pick up on these things.
And that's why I really think, like women, we have to have another way of seeing business.
[00:16:05] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:16:06] Speaker B: Because we don't believe in it. So how can I put the price when I don't believe I'm worth those money? Or I put an extra fee, but I don't dare to, like, enforce it. Yeah. Actually, I feel inside that, oh, that's crazy. I'm not. Those fees.
And people pick up on that.
[00:16:28] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:16:29] Speaker B: And, and it feels really, it doesn't feel good.
It doesn't feel good.
[00:16:34] Speaker A: It doesn't feel good. It feels horrible.
[00:16:36] Speaker B: Yeah. And so I think these feelings is something we really need to work on if we as women are going to be successful in business, especially in photography, which can easily feel like prostitution, because you give your soul, you know, you really make something from your heart and your soul and you want so much to please these people and you want so much to give something and that disappears, you know? And that's a, where it hurts so much, I think.
[00:17:10] Speaker A: Have you given any thought to what could help or how things could have been easier? Like, what do you wish you had learned if you would have wanted to stay as a photographer? Like, what would you, or in business, what would you wish that you knew in terms of the confidence and telling yourself that it's worth it or that you're worth it?
[00:17:33] Speaker B: I think. I wish I.
Everyone says you have to love yourself. You know, it sounds so easy, but what the hell? I don't even know what love is like. You're going to love yourself.
We grow up pleasing others, thinking that to earn love, we have to be lovable. I mean, we love others before we love ourselves. It's like a cliche, but still, if you don't love yourself, which I realized I didn't do, it's very hard to stand in such a public work as it is as a photographer. And there's lots of competition. It's a very, it's a job where you, you give everything. It's like an Olympic. Every time you go to a wedding, you know, it's like.
[00:18:21] Speaker A: It is.
[00:18:22] Speaker B: You have to prepare like you're going to the Olympic Games today, the day after. It's when the doors in the church open and the bridegest comes in and the light changed like this and the mood changed like this, and she runs down the aisle because she's so nervous and, you know, you have to get those pictures.
It's like running in the Olympics, you know? And now I lost track of what I was going to say, how you.
[00:18:52] Speaker A: Wish you had thought about it or how someone can think about it so.
[00:18:55] Speaker B: That they're so, I think, because that was a part of it that I actually also liked, you know, but I think I wish I was a little bit more aware of what was what and that I didn't always confuse because sometimes I did something just for the money and it wasn't what I really liked.
[00:19:20] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:19:21] Speaker B: And I.
I guess I wished I had the courage to be more myself in my work and say, you know, you pay. Actually, I wish there was never any business side of it.
I don't know if I still know how to deal with that. That's why I'm not working as a photographer.
[00:19:44] Speaker A: Yeah, no, it makes sense. And as I mentioned, the pandemic was really, really hard, not just because of the lack of money and business, which, of course, was there, but it was how rude. A lot of couples got. Like, they had already gotten one extra date and they wanted another one, and they just, you know, I lost hundreds and hundreds of thousands, and they were just like, but we don't want to lose these. And it's just like, oh, this is ruining my whole life and my business, and everything's falling apart. And then my very last wedding, I'm sure you can relate to this. My very last wedding, the bride told me, I don't know how many times during the day and during the photos, this is so expensive. And I just couldn't see straight at the end. I was already really nervous because I knew she thought it was expensive, and I dreaded it for so long. And I knew this was going to be my last wedding because I had had so, like, I had enough. And then during the photography, she was like, oh, it's so expensive to do wedding photography. And I'm pretty sure they're my worst wedding photos ever because I just couldn't think straight because she made me so nervous.
And, of course, we have to charge money. Everything we do costs money, so of course we need money.
But that just goes to say how important it is to work with the right people who give you energy instead of taking it away, because everything we do is so personal, like you say.
[00:21:20] Speaker B: Yeah. And I don't know how to keep that balance. But, like, if people ask me now, can you take pictures? Sometimes I want to do it but then now I say, okay, I'll do it as a gift. It's the only way I can do it because I had a burnout, and as soon as I get this much feeling of I have to perform, I'm dead.
[00:21:49] Speaker A: Yeah, but do you feel like you don't have to perform when it's a gift?
[00:21:54] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:54] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:21:55] Speaker B: Because then I create what I want.
[00:21:59] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:22:00] Speaker B: You know, and they cannot tell me, you know, I'm a little fat on that picture. Can you just. Or the colors are not what I imagined, or can you just. Can you just, you know. No, you give it. It's black and white. You had imagined color, but that's my gift.
So. Yeah, and most of the times, people, when I create something that I don't think about my customer, I create something that they will like.
When I try to create something that I think they will like, it ends up in the middle and no one likes it.
[00:22:37] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:38] Speaker B: Like, I don't like it and they don't like it. And. Yeah, but they don't know this, of course. So this is also, like, a thing that makes it not so fun, you know, because you knew, you know, that you could really create a really nice picture for them if they let you.
[00:22:56] Speaker A: Yeah, if they let you. Because I think. I think sometimes people think that a photographer is just a photographer and I can just book someone and it's gonna end up and I can kind of direct it or say what I want, and then that's what their going to create, but that's not how it is. You have to choose someone you trust. That is so important. But that means that we have to kind of convey that they can trust us, which can be the hard part. And especially when you add the money aspect on top, it's like, but I need to pay my bills, so I just need to get anyone booked. And then things start falling apart because you're not booking the couples or the clients that you should because you're thinking about the money. And then you can't really say that people should trust you because you're not necessarily offering what they want, you're just taking them on because you need to. So it's really hard.
[00:23:50] Speaker B: It's really hard. And many times I said no to customers just because. Gut feeling. I could have a male. I don't even know who these people are. And I had, that day was free in my calendar, but sometimes I said no. I don't have the capacity just for the feeling.
[00:24:09] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And that's really important, trusting your gut feeling. I think that's maybe one of the lessons to take away from this, because it's so easy to say yes when you know you should say no. And every time I've done that, I've known afterwards or beforehand that this is going to end up bad. And afterwards I've said, like, I knew this was going to happen.
So painful.
[00:24:36] Speaker B: It's that. But another thing that I was thinking now that I used to do when I did wedding photography that I think was a very smart thing, I gave them always really a lot of pictures, 200, 300.
Only a few of those pictures were the wedding pictures, but I took all the guests, grandma, grandpa, like those kind of situations. These pictures I didn't have to edit, you know, nothing. And these are the pictures that the people appreciate a lot and they just give value. So because they got. Some other wedding photographers used to tell me, you can't give them that many pictures. But for me it was easy. Those were not pictures. I was there the whole day anyway. So these are just this kind of pictures. And they are not the most amazing pictures, but they have feelings in them and they have all their guests in some way.
And in that way, they never complained so much for my weddings. I didn't have such a problem with the people complaining. Price for weddings, that was more the portraits than the others, because when they got so many pictures, they felt that they got value for the money. So I think this is an easy way to make people happy and feel that they get more for it because it's expensive.
[00:26:07] Speaker A: I agree. Over delivering is as long as it doesn't. If you don't overdo it so that it hurts you, I think it's a good idea because then it's not going to be so easy to argue with that. But you still have the people who argue beforehand and tell you it's expensive beforehand.
[00:26:24] Speaker B: Yes, yes, yes, definitely.
[00:26:25] Speaker A: Because afterwards it's done, the money is spent. But beforehand it can still feel really, really, really hard.
[00:26:33] Speaker B: Definitely.
[00:26:37] Speaker A: On October 23, I'm hosting a planning workshop, a one day workshop where we are gonna check out this year and see how things went. And then we're gonna use whatever information we found, as well as take a look at your value and what means the most to you to make sure that we can plan the best 2025.
I hope that you're going to be there because it's going to be really great. You can go to engelcolonaz.com minicourse to find more information. There's only 40 spots this year, so it's going to be very limited, and I just can't wait. So I'll see you there.
Have you. Because I did a workshop with you a couple of years ago, which was it last year. It was amazing. We were doing, like, flower photography and an amazing garden, or an amazing.
[00:27:34] Speaker B: It's like.
It is a garden.
[00:27:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
And you were speaking about your kind of journey as a photographer and how you got burnt out, and you said something that I thought was really interesting, and that was that you don't get burned out doing things you don't like. You can get burned out doing something you do. Like. Can you kind of speak to that a little bit?
[00:28:02] Speaker B: Because I. When I got burned out, I really thought I had done too much of what I didn't like, you know, of accounting and, you know, all these obvious things.
[00:28:13] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:28:15] Speaker B: But then I got to the psychiatrist, and she said to me, okay, we're going to talk about feelings.
And I said, damn. Now we're going about sorrow and, you know, mad anger. And she said, okay, let's start with the word eager, like.
And I was like, I don't have a problem with that. I'm really happy with that, you know?
And she said, well, you know, maybe that's the problem. And I was like, oh, my God, it is the problem. I'm like a dog. I just. My tail waggles every time someone comes with, throws me an idea.
And the same with weddings, you know, sometimes I feel so flattered, like they want me. Oh, God. Yeah. And then afterwards, I was like, but that was my only weekend off, so that I learned so much. Because when you don't get burned out because you're weak just because you really want to and you do too much of the things you want, of course, it's so much fun and it's all you want. And you just want one more thing out on social media before you go to bed. And it's 01:00 and it's just not perfect yet, so. Definitely.
But I never thought about that side of it. But that, for me, probably was the biggest factor.
[00:29:54] Speaker A: Also, did you learn some kind of strategies?
I don't know how to deal with it. Is it to just say no to things you want to do? I mean, how can you fix that?
[00:30:05] Speaker B: Well, that's one part of it, is that you need to say no and have your limits. Of course, things that you don't want to do, it's easier to say no because. And that means you can say yes to something else. So definitely that was a big part of, for me and what I learned is a really good trick for that. It's like you put down all the things that you do, like in your business or in life, and then you arrange them so you have what you value most on the top and then down. And then you can actually just draw a line in the middle.
[00:30:42] Speaker C: Oh, wow.
[00:30:43] Speaker B: And everything under the line is null and everything over the line is. Yes.
It's easy that way. It's really easy.
[00:30:56] Speaker C: Interesting.
[00:30:57] Speaker B: Yeah. So if you. If you do one with, it's best to do one with your whole life, you know, because you will see it so clearly. Obviously, family will come on top for most people, I think.
And what we often do is that they are the no.
[00:31:13] Speaker C: Yeah, that's so true.
[00:31:16] Speaker B: And that hurts our soul so much when we contradict. When we do, we don't know that even that we do it. But when we say yes to things that is on the no side, we would have to say no to the things on our yes side.
[00:31:32] Speaker A: Of course.
[00:31:33] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:31:34] Speaker A: Yeah. Because sometimes I speak with people and they say, I just say yes, and it doesn't affect anything. And, I mean, that's not true. Whether that means you get to sleep less or you have less time with your family or. I mean, there's always something that will suffer because it's not possible to do everything.
[00:31:50] Speaker B: It's not possible. And also what I learned is, like, you just say, no, no, it's a whole sentence, like, no other explanation needed. Because if you say no, I'm going to do something else instead. They said, oh, we can do it next week. And you have the same problem.
[00:32:08] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:32:09] Speaker B: So it's always like, no, I don't have the capacity. No, it's a no. Like, that was one of the things.
[00:32:19] Speaker A: But did it. Did it work for you? Did it, did it. I mean, knowing that that is a strategy is one thing, but were you able to kind of follow it and actually follow the line you drew and say yes and say no, not at once.
[00:32:37] Speaker B: It takes practice like everything else. I mean, I spur. I spent 40 years, you know, practicing saying yes when I want to say no.
[00:32:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:32:47] Speaker B: But after some time, and I also, you know, I stopped going to the psychiatrist and I went to a dog trainer instead. Okay, perfect. And he knew about the limits.
So what I learned is, like, you set the limit with no feelings.
You just love the other person. You know, you don't get upset, angry. You just put it away. It's just a no. Like, we put so much feeling into it because so many times we drag it too far, you know?
And when you're going to say no, you're already upset, and it comes out as a no.
[00:33:31] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:33:33] Speaker B: And then you feel bad afterwards, so you're like, well, I didn't mean it like, okay, we can find it, you know, so. But when I started to get the hang of saying no with no feeling, the other one wouldn't react either. When I don't have a feeling in my no, the other one doesn't even bother with. It's a no.
[00:33:55] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:33:56] Speaker B: Yeah. So that was great to learn.
[00:34:01] Speaker A: Very, very interesting. Okay, I like that. And that's helped you to have more balance, more energy back. Yeah.
[00:34:08] Speaker B: It takes time, but definitely. And another thing is, like, it struck me that, okay, if being eager is the thing that makes me exhausted, you know, it's a very good feeling for me. So I'm kind of addicted to it.
[00:34:26] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:34:27] Speaker B: I need to know when I'm eager.
[00:34:30] Speaker C: Right.
[00:34:31] Speaker B: So in that way, I started to think about it, and it turned out I didn't know the difference between inspired and eager.
[00:34:40] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:34:41] Speaker B: Which for me, it's like, now I can just do this, and I can feel, am I now inspired to do this, or am I just eager to.
That makes a very big difference. I need to just breathe and think, okay, hang on, hang on. Where do I feel this? Because inspired, it comes from within me.
[00:35:02] Speaker C: Right.
[00:35:03] Speaker B: And eager is more like someone throwing a bone to a dog. You know, you get. You just, whoa, it's fun. And you want to do it, but it's not necessarily your idea. It's not necessarily something you. You can feel that your soul, your being will feel. It's a different feeling. But once you get the hang of making two distinction, for me at least, that makes a very, very big difference.
[00:35:35] Speaker A: So to be able to kind of distinguish them, I guess you have to take some time before you say yes to something. Definitely. Okay.
[00:35:45] Speaker B: Have to, like, you know, sense.
Yeah. Does it make me good or is it just, like, to impress or for fun or am I just flattered?
You have to, like, find your feeling.
[00:36:01] Speaker A: Makes a lot of sense.
[00:36:03] Speaker B: And of course, sometimes you can say, oh, this is fun. I want to do it. And then you feel like, but hang on, this is not. It's just like some celebrity, for example. So that's why it's fun, you know? And you say, but this is not the kind of pictures that I want to put on my page, for example. Yeah, but it's fun because they want me and they are celebrities.
And then you have to say, okay, this is me being eager now, I would definitely love to be on this project. It would give me energy. They are fun people, for example.
Then I think you have to say, okay, this is nothing, something I create for my soul. So this has to be more expensive, right?
I can say yes to this, but then I have to earn more money not to sell my soul.
[00:36:57] Speaker A: That makes sense.
[00:36:59] Speaker B: So I think it's not that we are not going to do the things that we are feeling eager about, but I. When we learn to see, okay, this is that it has to be more expensive.
[00:37:11] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:37:13] Speaker A: You have to do it for the right reasons instead of just doing it. And also maybe remembering how it fits in with your priorities that you're not. Yeah, maybe just taking a second to see, like, okay, so what do I have to say no to in order to say yes to that? And is it then worth it?
[00:37:32] Speaker B: And for example, when I did weddings, also I had a price list for celebrities because they didn't want the pictures published.
So I put the price much higher. I had a price for where I could use some pictures on my webpage and for my publicity. And I had a completely different price for the people who wanted the rights to the pictures because obviously I'm not going to work for the same price if I can't use it for my marketing.
And people got really mad at me. I lost many clients from that.
[00:38:13] Speaker A: And that actually reminds me of something you said once where you had an inquiry from someone very rich in Norway who said, no, these prices are out of our budget and they're like the richest person in Norway.
Okay. So I just think that so often people think that, oh, I need to work with rich clients because rich clients are the only ones who can afford what we do. But it's all about what people value. It's not about money.
[00:38:41] Speaker B: It's not. And I think they sometimes got offended because they thought, I'm going to take more money from them with the higher prices. But you always pay more if you want the whole right to the picture. Of course, that's how it works, my friend, you know, but they got offended and I said, okay, then I rather go to a beach wedding where everything's low key and I earn the same amount of money and I can put those funny pictures on my webpage and get more clients.
Of course.
[00:39:20] Speaker A: Have you spoken to many others who have had similar experiences with you when it comes to burnout and quitting photography or wanting to quit?
[00:39:31] Speaker B: Not really.
I'm not sure.
I think, like, people don't mention so much all the personal reasons, you know, like, because I really think that what I said about self worth, how you're feeling about yourself and your relationships, you know, like, of course, all these things. I think people in the photography world, we don't talk about it. You know, we just say, I got burned out. I got tired of doing the. You know, but I think this is a very important side of it.
[00:40:10] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:40:11] Speaker B: And, yeah, I really believe, like, in life in general, I didn't think that I was lying so much, you know? And I read a book about that was called something about telling the truth. And I thought, I don't need to read that book. I don't lie. And I realized I'm lying about everything all the time, you know, so I just realized that honesty is the same as resting.
Yeah. You cannot rest if you cannot be honest.
And that goes for business and life, you know, and I thought so many times, I never really wanted to be a wedding photographer. I thought it was fun, but it wasn't my thing.
[00:40:57] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:40:58] Speaker B: And I felt all the time that I was lying. I said, like, oh, wow, this is such a wonderful wedding. I really enjoy my job, and this dress is so beautiful. And it's not the high end lying, but it's all that I'm lying a little bit.
[00:41:14] Speaker A: I completely understand.
[00:41:17] Speaker B: And that's also part of it.
[00:41:21] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:41:21] Speaker B: If we don't dare to be completely honest, we will always be caught in this imposter syndrome, you know? You think that one day they will discover that this is not who I am, and.
[00:41:35] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, this makes so much sense. And I'm not. I think that a lot of people go through burnout. And as I told you right before we started recording that one of the reasons that I wanted to start doing kind of education was because I knew so many who either got completely burned out or just gave up. And it was often the most talented ones, the best ones, who kind of gave the most who gave up. And I think that's one of the reasons why having this talk is really important, because I'm sure that many people can relate, even though maybe they're not at the place where they want to give up or have to give up. But can we kind of come up with some advice to kind of, what can we say to encourage people or to make them take the right decisions moving forward?
[00:42:26] Speaker B: I think one thing that is really important to say is that photographer is a really important job, because this is also one of the things for me. I didn't used to think that it was such an important job. You know, I used to think that, oh, I charge too much almost because it's a luxury, but it's not. It's not a luxury. It's really an important job in people's lives. And sometimes someone dies and what the pictures means to them, you know, it's. And for the families that these pictures last forever, you know, and we create some people's even, like, identity through. You can lift people. You can like, it's a, it's a really important job.
This is something very important to know.
[00:43:19] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:43:20] Speaker B: When you either just starting or you want to quit or you think you're charging too much, you know, because it's, it is very important.
[00:43:32] Speaker C: Yeah, I agree.
[00:43:33] Speaker B: I think I never thought so much about valuing my work in that way. You know, I always thought, because now as I work as a nurse, it's easy to say that I do an important job because, you know, so even if I don't earn that much, it's not an issue because it's easy for me to justify my work.
But that should be easy also with photography. And we must never forget that.
[00:44:02] Speaker A: That's a very important way of looking at it.
[00:44:07] Speaker B: Yeah. And then people must also not get caught in competing and even comparison because we all have our unique voice.
The more you trust your own voice, the better your work and the easier it should be to charge what you want and run a business.
But you have to, like, love yourself.
Otherwise, it's. If you are not honest, it's. It's going to. It's like that. If you're not honest, it doesn't go all the way.
[00:44:43] Speaker A: Yeah, I think so, too. And I think in that honesty lies a realization of who you want to work with. Because if you think like, oh, I can just work with anyone and it's going to be fine, I would say that you're really wrong because you're not right for everyone. There's someone who's going to value what you do the most. And if you work with those people, then you're going to feel better because your values are aligned. They want what you have to offer instead of just, yeah, okay, I can be your photographer and they'll be like, yeah, that's nice photos. Instead of working with those people who will really love them.
[00:45:21] Speaker B: And I think sometimes you just have to be brave all the time. You have to be brave. But, for example, when I did not weddings, but family pictures, I like to take a little bit more casual pictures, like more documentary style.
[00:45:37] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:45:38] Speaker B: And if there was families who booked with me who didn't want to be in the pictures themselves, like, they only wanted pictures of the children. I told them, you can go find another photographer. You can't come to me because I do. Only I, you know, you can't expect your children to want to be in the picture if you don't think you're pretty enough to be in the picture yourself. It's not no good.
So I forced them to be in the pictures, and afterwards, they almost always sent a mail and said, you know, we're so thankful for those family pictures.
So sometimes you just put your own and say, this is how I do it. And if not, then, yeah, but I.
[00:46:26] Speaker A: Think that's really important. And maybe that is like a confidence thing, but just being able to say, like, this is how I do it. If you don't want this, then you can go find someone else in a nice way. Yeah, I think that matters a lot, both to the client, who'll know, like, this is what I'm getting, but also to you to know that you're creating what you want to create.
[00:46:48] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think it's just a way of making them aware of why they came to you in the first place.
[00:46:55] Speaker C: Right.
[00:46:56] Speaker B: Also because, for example, me, I work a lot with feelings. I'm not a technical photographer, so some of my pictures are not even sharp. And if people were like, yeah, but there is this. It should be sharp. And, you know, okay, but then you need another photographer. And then they would say, but these pictures are boring. Yes, they are perfect. And then they would be more aware that they actually wanted the feeling.
[00:47:22] Speaker A: That's very true.
[00:47:24] Speaker B: So you have to be brave and, you know, say, speak your truth.
[00:47:30] Speaker A: I think, yeah, you said it was five years ago since you quit.
What's happened in those five years and what do you want to happen in the next five years?
[00:47:44] Speaker B: Oh, good question.
A lot has happened.
I think I had hit the rock bottom, as they said.
So of course it's a longer climb to get back up, but I've been working with really good people, like good coaches, and I think that is so important if when you are not burned out when you are working. And that is one of the things I really wish I had known. The value of having a coach or a mentor. Definitely.
[00:48:24] Speaker A: I think I could not do without my coach. No, it helps so much.
[00:48:28] Speaker B: So that was one of your previous questions and now got the answer.
So now I have, like, three different one coach, you know, that helps me build myself back up, and there is still a side of me that really wants to be a storyteller, but I'm not there yet because I'm still like, as soon as I have to perform, you know, I get nervous and I black out and I can't do anything.
So I have to find a way to get back to the creative. And maybe for me, it's too late to combine it with business again. You know, maybe that bridge burned, but I learned a lot about myself, so I would never, I wouldn't have done it differently because then I wouldn't have to do that job that I had to do with myself to start to like myself and start to be more true in the world, you know?
[00:49:30] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:49:31] Speaker B: So I think, like everything, you have to see it as a gift.
It is not. And I think also we talk a lot about burnout, and it's not a way of scaring people going into the industry because really it's not. And if it's like whiplash, that neck thing you get in the, in the accidents in the eighties, that doesn't exist anymore.
It doesn't exist in the eighties. Everyone walked around with one of those around and they all had it because they expected to have it if they crashed.
And the same with ADHD, we all expect to have it, so we have it. And burnout, we all expect to have it, so we have it. Of course, this is the side of it. I think we must not, like, talk about it as the big scary monster that it will appear now for everyone because they expect it.
So that's something I'm afraid of always when I talk about it, you know, that I manifest it for others, like, in that way because that's not what it is. I think they call it the dark night of the soul. And I think everyone during the lifetime has to go to their shadow side.
And in life, something or another is going to push us there. If it's abuse, if it's, you know, marriage breaking up or if it's your business, or if, you know, it's going to push us to go to the depth and through the darkness to be fully human, so we mustn't be afraid of it because it's really a gift. And maybe for the people going into the business now, if they can see that this is a gift, you have to just work with it all the time and start working with it with yourself and with your values and with all these things before you don't have any capacity, then it's really a gift, I think.
[00:51:32] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:51:33] Speaker A: And hopefully after listening to this and implementing some of those strategies like listing out what matters and all that learning to say no, maybe it's going to get a bit easier because it does. I don't know if burnout has to happen to everyone, but it does happen to a lot, especially for us creatives who pour everything we have into what we do. And if it does happen to you, I would suggest talking to someone, for sure.
[00:51:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:52:00] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:52:01] Speaker B: And I think, like, to get, like, before it happens to you to have them. If you have a mentor or a coach or someone to guide you, you wouldn't have to go through that because you would take some of your shadow all the time, you know, on the way. So. Yeah, yeah. Definitely have someone to help with that side of it because economy, and that is one part of it, but another part is our feelings around things. I think that's the part that we don't incorporate enough.
[00:52:38] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:52:38] Speaker A: I think that's maybe my biggest takeaway, that I need to speak more to feelings and maybe kind of validate my own feelings more. Like, what do I actually feel around things? Because I'm kind of like you. I just say yes because I want to so much. And then afterwards it's just okay, now it's too much and I don't know what to do. So, yeah, I need to. I need to learn from this.
[00:53:03] Speaker B: Yeah, we are. We are many people who learn. Who needs to learn this?
Definitely.
[00:53:10] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. But thank you so much for wanting to have this talk with me. Thank you for sharing. So honestly, even though you say that you are used to lying a lot, it feels honest. We shared what's happened to you and how you feel about things now. I'm sure this is going to be valuable for so many people who feel less alone knowing that it doesn't have to be this way. And there is a way to both get over it and maybe work around it.
[00:53:42] Speaker B: Yeah. And also, what I would like to say is, like, people must have fun.
Don't get too caught up in all the things, the serious things. I think that is my best advice. Like to enjoy and enjoy the journey and have fun and see all the obstacles as gifts.
[00:54:04] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:54:04] Speaker B: And possibilities to change and develop.
[00:54:08] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:54:10] Speaker A: Never stop evolving, for sure. That's a good ending note.
Thank you, Mona. If you are still on Instagram, I will share a link to your Instagram so people can follow you because you do show a lot of your beautiful photos there.
[00:54:25] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:54:27] Speaker C: Thank you.
[00:54:30] Speaker A: You just listened to an episode of sustainable photography. Please share this episode with the photographer you care about.
